After ten years of anime tracking, I decided to stop using MAL. This has a lot to do with its extended downtime (#588), but it's also due to years of weariness as a developer. Seeing DeNA's lack of concern for the website, its staff and its users was the last straw for me. I've lost trust in their management, and I don't want to use or promote their product anymore.
I'm currently debating whether I should remove MAL entirely from Taiga. For now, I decided to take the following actions:
- [x] Add a list export feature, so that people can move on to other services.
- [x] Remove instances of "MyAnimeList" from Taiga's website.
- [x] Change the default service to AniList or Kitsu, or leave it blank.
And here's some ground rules I set for myself:
- No participation: I'll no longer take part in MAL community. I won't visit the website unless I have to.
- No support: If anyone has any problems related to MAL, I will no longer try to explain that it's because how awful MAL API is. I will now recommend using one of the alternative services instead.
- No effort: I'm not going to spend any more time working with the old API, checking out unofficial ones, or devising my own workarounds.
I should note that I'm not burning bridges here. I will certainly reconsider my position, especially if the new MAL API becomes available. Nevertheless, I believe it's time I stopped complaining and took some action.
erengy
All 65 comments
I have a few entries not yet synced because of the MAL downtime. I assume Taiga wont have trouble exporting them?
Ricardo1991
on 2 Jun 2018
Yes, it takes your update queue into account while exporting your anime list.
In case you aren't aware, you can export your anime list right now.
erengy
on 2 Jun 2018
I kind of feel the same way. I already temporarily disabled MyAnimeList support and removed references for it on the Mac App Store. There is one reason why as Apple will never approve an updated version as long MyAnimeList API is down.
I have to admit that DeNA ninja disabling the new API really annoyed me as I wasted time getting it to work. Now, seeing them disable the API was the last straw. I am not sure I am confident in them fixing this given what they did.
If the new API ever comes back, I will continue working on it. If not, I will focus my efforts on adding other sites support.
moyitpro
on 2 Jun 2018
well, MAL just came back online. Would be sad if taifa stopped supporting it, as I'm not ready yet to move to another service.
Also a question: If old MAL api comes back in it's form, will old versions of Taiga work with MAL?
asakurato
on 2 Jun 2018
@asakurato
It only depends if DeNA restores the API or even the new one. Still, I don't have much faith in them doing the right thing given their actions with ninja disabling the new official API and then the legacy API. It's very disappointing and it's obvious that the forum mods and xinil didn't the API to be disabled, but one can only blame DeNA's incompetence and mismanagement. I feel that DeNA simply doesn't care about the efforts third-party developers put into creating innovative MyAnimeList clients that make list management easier. Why would you use MyAnimeList now that the very tools that made the experience better is gone? Sure there is the community and database, but the usability in my opinion went down the drain. Most people like myself don't want to manually edit entries and want it done automatically.
The only way they will listen is if everyone start using different services, which have gotten better and actually care about third-party apps.. Once they notice the drop in ad revenue and activity, they will change their mind.
tr;dr: I wouldn't bet on the API coming back anytime soon given DeNA's actions.
moyitpro
on 2 Jun 2018
I also don't count on API coming back. But the thing is, even if they don't care about third party apps, they should care about revenue right? If they stop supporting API, they will simply lose money from both ads and MAL supporter plan. I don't believe they are THAT stupid.
Another reason I still haven't move to another service is I have been on MAL for too long and don't know any better service that would be similar. Two services I have been hearing lately is Kitsu and Anilist, but I basically don't know anything about these.
asakurato
on 2 Jun 2018
Well, as a user of MAL, this is a bit unfortunate, but I understand completely your position as a developer. MAL has genuinely insulted the community by its recent actions. I can only hope that the new API they introduce, whenever that may be, will be friendly enough to all the third-party heroes that have helped make browsing and using MAL so much better throughout the years.
Fortunately, with the site's partial restoration today, I was able to export my list and import it to AniList, so I'll just be linking my Taiga there. Thanks for your continued work!
ghost
on 2 Jun 2018
@asakurato Kitsu is a much better service than MAL will ever be, they have competent staff and database mods who know how to do their job right which can't be said about MAL database mods as they do not know how to do their job right at all and constantly refuse to listen to users when it comes to database entries, refusing to add separate entries to certain series when asked or not listening to their users when told a certain series has a certain amount of episodes.
I've been using Kitsu/Hummingbird since Sept 3rd, 2013 and I fully support it and no longer support MAL.
ShaunV2
on 2 Jun 2018
@ShaunV2 wait, so you haven't been using MAL since 2013? And about the database moderators, I think this is exactly the best part on MAL. They have very strict and logical database guidelines. If they hadn't, something like Neo Yokio and Last Airbender would be on the site.
asakurato
on 2 Jun 2018
@asakurato What I meant by them not doing their job right is not adding a separate page for Enmusubi no Youko-chan when it is needed and refusing to fix the episode count to To Love-Ru Darkness 2nd to 14 episodes instead of 12 and deleting the non-existent special.
Their so called "guidelines" don't even apply to To Love-Ru Darkness 2nd but they refuse to fix their mistake or admit they made a mistake it's just pathetic.
I was using MAL with Hummingbird/Kitsu for a long time but the database mods just pissed me off too much to care about the garbage site anymore.
Just to be clear I started using MAL first a very long time ago (I believe I made the account in 2012) before I even heard of Hummingbird, due to an outage they had in 2013 I moved over to Hummingbird and have been a member ever since.
ShaunV2
on 2 Jun 2018
I'm checking out Anilist right now, seems good. maybe I'll move there.
asakurato
on 2 Jun 2018
If they have an app (when they put it back up), they must have an API ;)
chocolatkey
on 2 Jun 2018
@ShaunV2 @asakurato Please try to remember that this is an issue tracker, not a forum.
erengy
on 2 Jun 2018
I get how you feel from a developer's perspective, but to me as an end user, MAL is still the best choice hands down, easily beating out its competitors in ease of use and database completeness. And it's not just me that feels this way, MAL is the most popular site of its kind by a huge margin, so completely ceasing MAL support certainly feels to me like burning a bridge, even if DeNA's management is questionable to say the least, which it definitely is - even I, as the MAL shill here, definitely agree with that. I don't know anything about the API, so I can't blame you for being frustrated by it, you have more of a right to talk about that topic than someone like me, but even still, all things considered, I urge you to retain MAL support unless you want to lose a massive portion of your userbase. That's not me being threatening or anything, just my two cents. If Taiga stops supporting MAL, for a lot of MAL users like myself, the site will be left in an awkward position of losing a feature that was integral to our use of the site, while simultaneously still not being worse than its competitors (bad enough to justify switching over). It's a lose-lose situation.
I genuinely appreciate the work you've done on Taiga and, of course, I realize that it's ultimately your call to make. Have a nice day!
SnowyNix
on 2 Jun 2018
i do not use your app yet but i know its a popular app and i might use it sooner or later i just want to say that make Kitsu the default since that site have a MAL Sync feature on its Export option so at least when people update their Kitsu lists then their MAL lists will be updated automatically too
ckmox
on 2 Jun 2018
The only usable app bites the dust. Hope someone forks it.
magicmaster
on 2 Jun 2018
Thank you for the export feature. I've transitioned to AniList with only about 10 or so entries lost due to database differences (mostly specials that AniList doesn't track separately from the main show). Looking forward to a bright, MAL-less future.
guft
on 3 Jun 2018
@SnowyNix I hope you realise the absence of an API makes supporting MAL incredibly infeasible. Erengy doesn't really have much of a choice but to drop support for MAL until they release a new API.
HyphenSam
on 3 Jun 2018
@HyphenSam I definitely realize that if DENA doesn't get their shit together, there won't be a functioning API for MAL, and therefore third-party apps won't work, and in that case, it's completely understandable why Taiga would want to cease support, but erengy made it sound in the OP like he's going to be completely giving up on the website forever, which I don't think would be very fair if and when DENA gets the API working again.
The fault is obviously on DENA here, they're doing an abysmal job at managing the website, but I also think that completely stopping MAL support forever would be a bit of a foolish thing to do _if_ the API came back at some point. If it doesn't, then I really can't blame him.
SnowyNix
on 3 Jun 2018
@SnowyNix If you read the last paragraph in the OP, he said he's not burning bridges and is willing to reconsider once DeNa releases a new API (and who knows when that will happen).
Though I do agree with you, they way he wrote the OP does seem like he's completely given up on the site, which is quite understandable.
HyphenSam
on 3 Jun 2018
This is not about Taiga not supporting MAL. This is about MAL not supporting Taiga and other applications.
First, there's the old MAL API that Taiga has been using since 2010 (an API is what makes it possible for applications such as Taiga to communicate with MAL). It's incomplete, inconsistent and buggy. Many quirks of Taiga are directly caused by it. I've spent hundreds of hours trying to deal with it, and that's just me, a single developer. In case you're wondering, I'm not paid for this, not even with donations.
Throughout the years, we the third-party developers tried to help MAL in any way we can so that they improve their API. But even the simplest of our requests were left unanswered. At one point, when MAL was still owned by CraveOnline, they formally asked us what we'd like to see in a new API. We combined our efforts and provided detailed feedback. But then they stopped communicating with us, and the possibility of a new API went down the drain. Not only that, but in time, MAL has crippled their old API even more.
Two years after DeNA acquired MAL, they approached us once again, to discuss their new API. I, along with other third-party developers, have spent a lot of effort to help with its design (you can see an example in this document I compiled). DeNA eventually began implementing our ideas. The new API was taking shape. MAL's official mobile app started using it. We were optimistic about being able to use it ourselves sometime this year. But then they cut our access to it, without much of an explanation. Then they suddenly took the old MAL API down, without a single word. It's been ten days now, and we still haven't been told if it's ever going to be restored.
Now, tell me: Don't you think we deserve some more respect? Are we going to act like nothing happened? How are we supposed to trust them again?
I'm aware that my decision will affect Taiga's userbase. I can understand that some users will not care as long as Taiga keeps working. But at what cost? Our continued suffering?
Nothing's going to change if we keep accepting whatever MAL throws at us. If we have any chance at actually getting a better service, I believe this is it. It's up to us to convince them, DeNA in particular, that they hurt their users and their company. Their actions must have consequences.
To clarify, the latest incident is almost entirely DeNA's fault. MAL staff I know feel quite bad about the whole situation. Please understand that my attitude is not toward any person.
If MAL restores their old API as is, Taiga's current version (and at least the next version) will continue to work as before. What I'm not going to do is to spend any more effort in trying to overcome its shortcomings. This includes compiling and releasing further seasonal data for MAL users (other services don't have this problem, because they provide much better APIs). This is, of course, assuming that their API comes back online. I don't expect this to happen anytime soon.
Despite everything, I haven't lost all hope. MAL can still pull itself together. But if they want us to keep working together, they're going to have to do more than an apology.
erengy
on 3 Jun 2018
Doesn't seem like the API is coming back anytime soon according MAL's twitter reply
taigalover
on 3 Jun 2018
Well, as a mod on AniDB, we already saw an influx of users coming our way and abandoning the MAL ship.
CDB-Man
on 3 Jun 2018
AniList was flooded with users importing lists the day MAL enabled exporting again but sad thing is we're gonna see a split in the community (AniDB / AniList / Kitsu), for all MAL its flaws it had a half decent forum with lots of active users.
RickDB
on 5 Jun 2018
Wow, MAL's worse than I thought. Thanks for elaborating, Erengy. As a developer myself, I can understand your frustration to some extent. Fully support your decision on this.
KikunXyy
on 7 Jun 2018
I think we will have API back soon
asakurato
on 7 Jun 2018
@asakurato See https://github.com/erengy/taiga/issues/588#issuecomment-395689578. Also note that #588 is more appropriate for news regarding MAL API.
erengy
on 8 Jun 2018
A shame mal is so enormously disrespectful towards developers since I really like that they have builtin update history like taiga. (you can't export it though...)
BlackJoe23
on 8 Jun 2018
I second the motion that Anilist is selected by default. Comparing both websites, Anilist feels fresh, while MAL feels dated, and the service provided, although Anilist still has some quirks, is much better and from my own experience, stable.
Statharas
on 10 Jun 2018
@Statharas Kitsu is actually better than both MAL and Anilist.
ShaunV2
on 10 Jun 2018
You can't hide your profile or list on Kitsu (or I didn't find out how). That's a problem for me. So I'd prefer Anilist for now.
rld243
on 11 Jun 2018
@rld243 There are options to prevent your posts from appearing on global under privacy (there is no way to hide it completely, I don't understand the need to fully hide your profile that just defeats the purpose of having one) and yes you can hide your library, per library entry that is not the whole library at once. Go to your library and click on edit to a series and set the privacy to public or private.
I'm still going to say Kitsu is better than Anilist.
ShaunV2
on 11 Jun 2018
Anilist is made on the Laravel framework, providing incredible API tools, v2 update moved onto Angular, and besides the fact that its service so far has been incredible, the developer behind it is very co-operative and has proven to be reliable in the past.
Statharas
on 11 Jun 2018
Life after MyAnimeList
I switched to a simple text file about 4 years ago… and never looked back.
(Precisely due to the reasons mentioned by @erengy, for which I can fully vouch as the developer behind MALgraph.)
rr-
on 11 Jun 2018
@rr- Wait what? A text file? How does that work? Do you have a PTW? Do you update episode by episode? How do you know what you completed? Do you not engage in forums, or you're not interested in the social aspect of the Anime-sites? How do you get recommendations? Then how do you use Taiga?
taigalover
on 11 Jun 2018
@taigalover it looks like he is having a list on his website: https://sakuya.pl/anime.htm
Fixkey
on 11 Jun 2018
@taigalover Wow that's a lot of questions :)
A text file? How does that work?
It's just a regular .txt file. You can edit these with pretty much anything.
Do you have a PTW?
Yes
Do you update episode by episode?
No
How do you know what you completed?
I just add a line with the anime title after I finish something.
Do you not engage in forums, or you're not interested in the social aspect of the Anime-sites?
I was never really interested in online anime forums to begin with, I mostly discuss anime with a bunch of buddies.
How do you get recommendations?
I get these from my friends, I also look up recommendations and tags I like on anidb.
Then how do you use Taiga?
Unfortunately I don't ever since I quit MAL (plus I switched to Linux a few years back), but it's an excellent piece of software I recommend to anyone.
rr-
on 11 Jun 2018
Let's hope that dropping MAL can speed up development of other features that weren't possible because the MAL API sucked balls. Like actually having the ability to update multiple trackers at the same time (I have some ideas how that could work without too much work on Taigas side)
Ruhrpottpatriot
on 13 Jun 2018
Is there any free/libre MAL alternative?
9Morello
on 14 Jun 2018
@moyitpro My bad, I checked AniList's repository and it is almost empty. Kitsu doesn't seem to have a link to their repository on their website, so I assumed it was proprietary. Good to know it's free.
9Morello
on 14 Jun 2018
AniList is closed source as far as I'm aware. Kitsu does have a link to their repo in the feed sidebar - really needs to be in more places imo, as it's not visible until you register/login...
wopian
on 14 Jun 2018
Does anybody have any news on whether or not ANN plans on expanding their API beyond just the encyclopedia?
Kovaelin
on 18 Jun 2018
As a MAL user and primarily Mac/Linux user I've been eagerly awaiting a Unix release of Taiga. Guess I'll keep waiting for the MAL API to come back. On the slim chance that Taiga ever functions with MAL again and releases a non-windows version Ill finally be able to use this app. I do watch on windows sometimes so Taiga is still useful to display what I'm watching to everyone on discord. I'll have to experiment to see if Taiga can run in Wine and still detect my MPV and discord running on Mac. I'd be a full convert to Anilist if that's the case
YoshiYogurt
on 23 Jun 2018
@YoshiYogurt You might be interested in https://github.com/z411/trackma
rr-
on 23 Jun 2018
currently what anime database do you recommend? myanimelist, anime planet, Taiga, Kitsu etc? what do you use? I want to make an anime website =? please help me
Fcort237
on 9 Jul 2018
https://twitter.com/myanimelist/status/1030444972489809921
finally they gonna give some ETA and info about API, welp
darkash
on 17 Aug 2018
I think it's good to move away from MAL. They got bought out, and now they're even removing the fansubs section. It's clear what they're becoming.
Tenome
on 18 Sep 2018
Hey what do we put for RSS feeds? Taiga no longer works for me and I do not know what to do. Please help. Thanks!!!!
servicemx
on 24 Sep 2018
How can I save my RSS feed? When I move to one of the defaults I lose mine
tig-mmp
on 24 Sep 2018
In case anyone's interested, here's how Taiga's userbase has changed in the past few months:
Contrary to what I expected, there are still just as much (even slightly more) active users of Taiga since MAL API went offline. Most people didn't stop using Taiga because of that, they just moved to another service.
erengy
on 6 Oct 2018
More than 40% increase in AniList users wow. And less than 10% increase in Kitsu users. Damn no love for Kitsu.
taigalover
on 6 Oct 2018
More than 40% increase in AniList users wow. And less than 10% increase in Kitsu users. Damn no love for Kitsu.
It was pointed out to me that Kitsu had some professionalism issues of their own in the past, which is why I joined some other friends on AniList instead.
Kovaelin
on 12 Oct 2018
I only maintain a barebones MAL list to show my IRL friends. All of my real data is on AniDB; where I'm also a senior mod. I kept the MAL account active because it was "super slim and lacking in detail", which works well for non-enthusiasts. I thought about migrating to AniList or some other service, but that was more work than it is worth, especially since my primary account has always been AniDB.
CDB-Man
on 16 Nov 2018
MAL has been bought by Media Do.
I’m super excited to announce - MyAnimeList has been acquired by MEDIA DO HOLDINGS Co., Ltd.（Media Do)! As an established eBook and Manga datastore and distributor, headquartered in Tokyo, Japan, I believe Media Do is uniquely positioned to slingshot MAL into being the number one ‘all-things’ anime and manga platform.
What does this mean? In the short term, not a lot will change. A bunch of logistics and legal hurdles are still being worked out, so DeNA will continue the day-to-day maintenance for at least the next few weeks to come. In the less-short term, it means a new dedicated team, a new schedule of priorities, and a new vision for MAL’s future! Having chatted with the Media Do group a number of times now, I’ve been delighted to share in their excitement and enthusiasm for improving and growing MAL.
It’s been roughly four years since DeNA took the helm with MAL’s development, and they successfully guided us through a very difficult growth state. I will forever be grateful to DeNA’s team, and their tireless translators. We’ve come a very long way, and we wouldn’t be here without their care and support.
I have no doubt good things are in store for us this year! Thank you everyone for your support and continued involvement in our amazing community.
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1761834
I hope that "new vision for the future" includes an API.
ifonefox
on 15 Jan 2019
I hope that "new vision for the future" includes an API.
Or, you know, you could export your list and import it over AniList
https://anilist.co/settings/import
Statharas
on 21 Jan 2019
Has anyone made a fork that interacts with MAL via web scraping?
Atario
on 21 Jan 2019
I think moving to kitsu is the right choice. it has a good app and very useful features
moepoi
on 21 Jan 2019
Might be worth adding to the first message that Taiga can be used with MAL just like before if you set up a kitsu account as a default one, import your MAL list, and enable the export feature in the account settings on kitsu.io site. And oh, kitsu supports two rating systems, simple and advanced!
tophf
on 29 Jan 2019
i really want anidb support probably going to do it myself idk why you would go for MaL even though anidb might not be the coolest api out there still their data and api wont disappear out of nowhere like MaL anidb is from far the most reliable source afaik
https://jikan.moe/ dont tell me you guys havent heard of this unofficial mal api btw?
I made an extension for MaL long ago and i will never give it up idc if they change things im going to create a basecode so strong that it never breaks i think you should do the same don't give up i can give you that it is a paint to have to follow and clean all of their messing with data but still its MaL our MaL
btw idc where i host my list as long as it works
ghost
on 3 Mar 2019
https://jikan.moe/ dont tell me you guys havent heard of this unofficial mal api btw?
From the first post in this thread by the developer:
And here's some ground rules I set for myself:
...
No effort: I'm not going to spend any more time working with the old API, checking out unofficial ones, or devising my own workarounds.
Using this api wrapper would require Erengy to either host his own instance, or use a public instance. If its self-hosted, Erengy would have to pay for the server hosting it and keep it up today. A public instance runs the risk of disappearing one day, creating more issues. Either way, you'll have to give your password to a 3rd party, creating a big privacy/security issue.
I'd also like anidb support, but it uses a direct UDP-based API, rather than HTTP like all the other services taiga supports. I wouldn't be surprised if that would cause issues integrating the API. I don't see it happening unless someone else adds it, or they make a full HTTP API that can both read and write.
ifonefox
on 4 Mar 2019
Might be worth adding to the first message that Taiga can be used with MAL just like before if you set up a kitsu account as a default one, import your MAL list, and enable the export feature in the account settings on kitsu.io site.
This works flawlessly. Absolutely no reason to mess with a 3rd party API or anything when this works just fine.
Now only if more people who wanted MAL integration back knew about it.
FireFtw
on 6 Mar 2019
Can confirm, Taiga → Kitsu → MAL hack works. I just wish Kitsu was also capable of picking up changes within MAL by itself
Atario
on 8 Mar 2019
I'm also using Taiga -> Kitsu -> MAL. However:
- Kitsu overwrites the timestamps in your MAL profile. So if you cared about keeping the day you started/finished an anime, that information is lost.
- At one point in time, Kitsu simply stopped updating my MAL profile. I had to re-sync..
- There's a trust relationship here. You have to provide your MAL password to the Kitsu service. In the case of a data leak by Kitsu, both accounts are compromised.
9Morello
on 8 Mar 2019
(jikan) I didn't say it should be implemented.
(anidb) Even if the integration of anidb doesnt work flawlessly it is still better than nothing.
ghost
on 9 Mar 2019
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Most helpful comment
This is not about Taiga not supporting MAL. This is about MAL not supporting Taiga and other applications.
First, there's the old MAL API that Taiga has been using since 2010 (an API is what makes it possible for applications such as Taiga to communicate with MAL). It's incomplete, inconsistent and buggy. Many quirks of Taiga are directly caused by it. I've spent hundreds of hours trying to deal with it, and that's just me, a single developer. In case you're wondering, I'm not paid for this, not even with donations.
Throughout the years, we the third-party developers tried to help MAL in any way we can so that they improve their API. But even the simplest of our requests were left unanswered. At one point, when MAL was still owned by CraveOnline, they formally asked us what we'd like to see in a new API. We combined our efforts and provided detailed feedback. But then they stopped communicating with us, and the possibility of a new API went down the drain. Not only that, but in time, MAL has crippled their old API even more.
Two years after DeNA acquired MAL, they approached us once again, to discuss their new API. I, along with other third-party developers, have spent a lot of effort to help with its design (you can see an example in this document I compiled). DeNA eventually began implementing our ideas. The new API was taking shape. MAL's official mobile app started using it. We were optimistic about being able to use it ourselves sometime this year. But then they cut our access to it, without much of an explanation. Then they suddenly took the old MAL API down, without a single word. It's been ten days now, and we still haven't been told if it's ever going to be restored.
Now, tell me: Don't you think we deserve some more respect? Are we going to act like nothing happened? How are we supposed to trust them again?
I'm aware that my decision will affect Taiga's userbase. I can understand that some users will not care as long as Taiga keeps working. But at what cost? Our continued suffering?
Nothing's going to change if we keep accepting whatever MAL throws at us. If we have any chance at actually getting a better service, I believe this is it. It's up to us to convince them, DeNA in particular, that they hurt their users and their company. Their actions must have consequences.
To clarify, the latest incident is almost entirely DeNA's fault. MAL staff I know feel quite bad about the whole situation. Please understand that my attitude is not toward any person.
If MAL restores their old API as is, Taiga's current version (and at least the next version) will continue to work as before. What I'm not going to do is to spend any more effort in trying to overcome its shortcomings. This includes compiling and releasing further seasonal data for MAL users (other services don't have this problem, because they provide much better APIs). This is, of course, assuming that their API comes back online. I don't expect this to happen anytime soon.
Despite everything, I haven't lost all hope. MAL can still pull itself together. But if they want us to keep working together, they're going to have to do more than an apology.