Openstreetmap-carto: Add rendering for emergency=defibrillator

[kocio-pl]

This is similar to https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/318 and https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1160 and it also depends on https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1504 (database re-import).

This is one of the most popular emergency items (8 621 uses on Taginfo).

I think the icon should be like this:
1)

in a color and text style of health amenities, but rendered from z>=18, or even 19.

I'm aware that there were already some discussions about it, but we should gather the opinions about it somewhere, especially when there's a draft for the icon.

[mboeringa]

Icon seems sound, as it follows the most used standard for this. However, to improve recognizability, maybe also stick with the green color often used?

[kocio-pl]

Nice idea! I was not aware there is a color associated with it, but it would help us a lot probably. Any (hex) shade that we should try?

[lest69]

It seems like green isn't always used. Colour usage seems to be split between green and red.

Since #1355 may use green for other objects and I don't think we're using green for any other icons right now (are we?), maybe it would be best to just use the health amenity red/purple?

[matthijsmelissen]

I'm not quite sure about rendering this icon. What would be the use case in which it would be useful for someone to have this icon on the map?

[HolgerJeromin]

The use case is that you get aware of them in your local area so that you remember them in case of an emergency.

[kocio-pl]

Now I think it doesn't fit the general style, so closing this ticket.

[rjw62]

I think the usecase given by HolgerJeromin above is very important. These potentially life-saving devices are only useful if people know where they are. Showing them on the map would help raise awareness of their locations. I'd therefore like to see this ticket re-opened.

[kocio-pl]

Two important questions:

1. Do they belong to a general map?
2. If yes - how should they be rendered?

[rjw62]

For Q2: Presumably we should base any icon on the ILCOR standard described at http://www.ilcor.org/news/news-archive/ilcor-presents-a-universal-aed-sign but possibly simplified a bit to work better at small sizes. Whether it should be green (to match the standard) or pink (to match our other emergency/health icons) is an open question.

[kocio-pl]

I mean something more concrete than general look - we need a vector icon which fits 14px matrix.

I still think that being important doesn't mean being general - it's a specialized device and should be visible on special style.

[matthijsmelissen]

Nowadays about every office block has a defibrilator in the Netherlands. I'm afraid rendering them would flood the map.

[pnorman]

Nowadays about every office block has a defibrilator in the Netherlands. I'm afraid rendering them would flood the map.

Yes - even though I think they're important and don't belong on a general map, if I did think they should be rendered, there's the practical problem that they either tend to overlap with another POI, or be in an area where rendering them would flood the map.

[jojo4u]

Waste baskets are rendered and much more abundant. Only public defibrillators should be rendered. The ones in office buildings should get access=private.

[HolgerJeromin]

Many waste baskets are next to nothing or a bench in a park and is not overlapping many shop POIs. So IMO both are not comparable.
I am not sure if they are too much...

[SomeoneElseOSM]

Personally I don't buy the "not enough room" argument. Even though OSM's "standard" tiles only support up to z19, at z19 there's plenty of room for a small icon:

https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=19&lat=53.163729&lon=-1.415489

[dktue]

Can we reopen this issue, please?

[kocio-pl]

Sure we can, but the question is on which merits?

[dktue]

I agree with @SomeoneElseOSM that there's plenty of room at z19 and those defibrillators that are accessible by the public should be visible to raise awareness -- so that you know where they are in case of emergency.

In my city we have a public list of publicly available defibrillators that has been mapped into OSM. I think there's real advantage to show them without cluttering the map.

[kocio-pl]

I think there's real advantage to show them without cluttering the map.

I can't agree with it, see here:

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/yCJ

They are competing with shops, offices, pubs and other objects even now, because they carry an address tag (see #962).

[dktue]

But they can all be rendered whithout any label-collision at this level -- I don't see any problem.

[kocio-pl]

I don't say about label collisions, only about clutter. I mean they are small indoor facility which are visible the same as other, bigger amenities. Even bus stops and bicycle parkings are less visible, because they are not located on the buildings.

I have moved toilets to z19+ lately (#3055) exactly because they can be indoor facility (think of a toilet in the cafe), but they are bigger and more useful in a daily life. Defibrillator belongs to an emergency kind of map.

[dktue]

How about only rendering those defibrillators that are publicly accessible?

[Adamant36]

They could be added to the "health" category ;)

[dktue]

@Adamant36 or the _emergency_ category ;)

[SomeoneElseOSM]

How about only rendering those defibrillators that are publicly accessible?

A surprising (to me anyway) of these do have an access tag:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/emergency=defibrillator#combinations

[jragusa]

@Adamant36 I agree to display emergency tag with the same colour than heath tag scheme

@dktue that's would be related to #1012

@SomeoneElseOSM I think they distinguish facility available in public space to those located in office and storage site of companies for example.

[rbovard]

So just to be sure, there will be no way to add emergency=defibrillator in the rendering at z=19?

If that's the case, I find it really unfortunate because these POIs could be very important in some situations.

[dktue]

@rbovard : You have my backup: I really want them to be rendered. Because rendering does not only show things for consumers of the map but also encourages mappers to put this type of feature into openstreetmap.

[rbovard]

@dktue: Yes, you're absolutely right.

@kocio-pl: Could you please reconsider reopening this issue? I also checked taginfo and there is now 18'600+ entries in database, which is the 4th most used value in emergency key.

[kocio-pl]

The numbers are not the problem (they're quite high), but I think rendering it would clutter even z19. If we have z20, that might be worth reconsidering, however we're mostly trying to follow osm.org and there's only z19 for now.

[rbovard]

I understand your fears but cannot agree with them.

You've mentionned the toilets you've moved to z19+, why not doing the same for defibrillators? Saving a life is at least as important as going to the toilets for me.

[kocio-pl]

For me guiding principle for general map like this is size. Bigger life saving objects (like hospitals) are well visible and I think this is OK.

[SomeoneElseOSM]

@rbovard

I find it really unfortunate because these POIs could be very important in some situations.

Given the restrictions (particularly around zoom level) of the OSM Carto tiles on osm.org, why not instead use a different rendering that can show these objects?

[rbovard]

@SomeoneElseOSM Do you mean a smaller symbol than the one proposed by @kocio-pl in the first message? Because I already find it discreet and understandable, don't you?

[rbovard]

I just made some visual tests with proposed icon:

Variant A:

Variant B:

[SomeoneElseOSM]

For completeness, here's what I use in a different map style - https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=17&lat=54.001639&lon=-1.058 (the purple "AED" in that image). That actually doesn't look too out of place at zoom 17 (it's a deliberately small icon). z19 for comparison: https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=19&lat=54.001784&lon=-1.057609 and z21: https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=21&lat=54.0018778&lon=-1.0575059 .

In your second image above it does look "odd" to have the AED icon the same colour and size as a hospital one. Ultimately every map style needs "guardians" deciding what to leave out - otherwise you'll end up with a complete mess. Any style decisions won't be to everyone's taste since everyone has different requirements and ideas (and certainly numerous decisions here don't fit in with mine!); I was mostly asking about your insistence about adding it to this particular map style, as opposed to (say) one of the other 3 at osm.org or the many, many others that use OSM data.

[rbovard]

Okay, thanks a lot for your example. Is the use of text symbols part of the OSM's best practices for rendering?

And what do you think with smaller icons (sorry for the quality, I'm working with raster images):

Variant C:

Variant D:

I was mostly asking about your insistence about adding it to this particular map style, as opposed to (say) one of the other 3 at osm.org or the many, many others that use OSM data.

Because this information can be vital in some cases and the more people know where they are, the more lives could be saved.

And also for the reason that @dktue mentioned:

Because rendering does not only show things for consumers of the map but also encourages mappers to put this type of feature into openstreetmap.

[SomeoneElseOSM]

Okay, thanks a lot for your example. Is the use of text symbols part of the OSM's best practices for rendering?

_OSM_ doesn't have best practices for rendering. _This style_, as I understand it, doesn't use text unless unavoidable, because it's designed to be an international style for use by people whose native language might use non-latin characters.

[rbovard]

Okay, so if we want to have a chance to see AED landing in default style it's better to use a symbol.

What do you think about my last proposal?

@kocio-pl: Is it possible to reopen this issue, since we are actually trying to figure out how to add these defibrillators on the map?

[kocio-pl]

Sure - the discussion is real, so let's make it visible.

[dktue]

@rbovard : I personally prefer the green version of your icons but that's mostly because _in Germany_ the typical icon for an AED is green.

[rbovard]

As pointed out by @rjw62, I think the universal AED sign is green. [1]

But in OSM, health related points are red. [2]

So the question is, should we fit into health color scheme or create a new one in green? A lot of emergency symbols are green (but not all, eg. fire) [3]

[1] https://www.ilcor.org/home/ (see Universal AED sign at the bottom)
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Healthcare
[3] Search results emergency green symbol

[matkoniecz]

There are many universal colour systems.

Following all of them for symbols on map, with so huge range of symbols would not end well.

If defibrillator would be rendered it should be rendered in a colour common with other healthcare objects.

[rbovard]

Ok, I totally agree with you.

So we need to propose a red symbol, which is not too big comparing to other healtcare facilites.

I made some tests, this time with vector symbols:

Variant E:

Variant F:

What do you think?

[matkoniecz]

Second icon look like an ice cream cone.

First one is unfortunately not clear - is it possible to make symbol within heart bigger?

(note: I have not thought whatever this object should appear on map, but note that if present it may be hidden by other icons appearing earlier and certainly will not get a special priority in case of multiple icons at one place).

[dktue]

@matkoniecz : For me it was hard to see an ice cream cone -- I could immediately identify the ECG. But I think having the first icon (with a bigger and clearer flash-icon) would be better as it follows more the typical icon for an AED.

[rbovard]

@matkoniecz Thanks for your feedback.

For the variant F, I simply used the defibrillator maki icon [1]

Anyway I tried 2 new variants with a bigger bolt:

Variant G:

Variant H:

[1] https://github.com/mapbox/maki/blob/master/icons/defibrillator-15.svg

[rjw62]

I think the bolt is more visible on Variant G, and that's my favourite so far. I think the overall icon is still a little on the large side, and it might be more acceptable if it could be slightly smaller. To me the heart shape looks a bit too wide anyway, so I wonder if you could keep the same height and the same bolt inside as Variant G, but reduce the width of the heart outline by one pixel on each side.

[rbovard]

@rjw62 Thanks for your suggestion.

Variant I:

[dktue]

I prefer the bolt of variant H because its shape is closer to the typical AED-icon. I like the narrower heart of variant I. Maybe you can merge them @rbovard ?

[rbovard]

@dktue Thanks for your suggestion.

Variant J:

[dktue]

@rbovard : Variant J is the best so far in my opinion.

[rbovard]

Thanks @dktue.

And the others? @rjw62 @matkoniecz

[rjw62]

I'd be happy with either I or J, and don't have a strong preference between them.

[matkoniecz]

I have no strong preference, though I am still unsure whatever rendering this icon is a good idea.

[pnorman]

On the display I'm using I can't clearly see the bolt in either I or J.

I still feel we should not render this.

[Marc-marc-marc]

"z19+, not if private, hidden by other icons appearing earlier" could be an agreement ?
it should display less defibrillators than waste basket

[rbovard]

Thanks for your proposition @Marc-marc-marc, which sounds good for me!

[Adamant36]

""z19+, not if private, hidden by other icons appearing earlier""

Aren't all defibulators essentially private? Like, there's one on the wall at my local gym that I walk by all the time, but I'm pretty sure not everyone can just grab it. I think only the employees can because you have to have special training to use one. I could be wrong, but if so, I don't think they should be rendered. As its not useful to anyone in that case.

[rjw62]

"Aren't all defibulators essentially private?" No, at least not based on what's mapped in the UK. Some my be privately owned but are deliberately made available for the general public to use. Here a lot of towns and villages are installing AEDs in weather-proof cabinets on the walls of shops, churches, sports pavilions and public buildings. See e.g. https://www.eastamb.nhs.uk/your-service/campaigns/their-life-your-hands.htm The "Automated" in "Automated External Defibrillator" means that the devices need no special training to use. Audible instructions are provided when you switch them on, and shocks are only given if its detected that the patient needs them. You get an increase in survival rates from about 5% to 50% if you can get an AED to a cardiac arrest patient within 4 minutes. So knowing where these are located within your community (whether public or private) can be a real life-saver. It's not so vital to know where waste baskets are located!

[Adamant36]

"It's not so vital to know where waste baskets are located!"

Your kind of comparing apples and oranges there in my opinion. If defibs are worth rendering, they are worth rendering. What other icons that you or others, think are less important don't really factor into that equation.

Personally, I'm nutural on it. I can see where it would be worth adding them. There's a few where I frequent that it would be helpful to see on the map, but then I also see the potentional downside to adding yet another icon to z19. Especially in dense areas where it risks blocking out more important icons.

Is there a preset for them in iD Editor and have you asked OsmAnd if they would add rendering of defibs? It seems like something better suited for their "more details" section.

The arguement could be made that its something where time is of esence to find that an app better serves that purpose then loading a website. Especially with the main websites issues. You wouldn't want someone dying because the site didn't load. Whereas, I'm pretty sure that stuff is pre downloaded and near instantly viewable in OsmAnd.

[rjw62]

If you're going to prioritize one icon over another, then you have to compare apples with oranges. It was suggested above that waste baskets should be rendered in preference to AEDs if the two were close. I was explaining why I disagreed. I'm fine with them not blocking out other more important stuff, but I don't waste baskets fall into this category.

Regarding the usefulness displaying them on a website, I don't think the use case is to look them up when the need arises (you'd laterally be wasting vital seconds however you chose to do it). The more important point is to have them displaying on the default OSM map so that people get to know where their local AEDs are located, and so don't need to look it up when there's an emergency.

(iD already has a preset for AEDs, there's a request for them to be rendered in OSMAnd https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/issues/6896 , and they already render on Maps.me.)

[rbovard]

FYI the AEDs are now rendered in OsmAnd:

[Adamant36]

Awesome. I don't know if that's a pro or a con for rendering them here.

[Fizzie41]

Wondering if there's been any further progress on this idea?

[cquest]

AED are rendered in OSM-FR style:

• https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/fr/map/rendu-fr-en-developpement_483858#18/47.86558/3.39360
• https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/fr/map/rendu-fr-en-developpement_483858#18/48.80306/2.48517 (indoor)

We currently run a "project of the month" on that topic: http://projetdumois.fr/projects/2020-09_aed

[Cj-Malone]

OSMUK is also considering focusing on defibs as a quarterly project. It would be awesome if this came together in time.

[Adamant36]

OSMUK is also considering focusing on defibs as a quarterly project. It would be awesome if this came together in time.

Not saying these shouldn't be rendered, but it might be cool to have certain things temporary rendered when there is an official OSM project going to map them. Otherwise, you'd have to be dependent on a third party QA tool or something. Which just creates one more possible mapping/learning barrier in the chain or whatever.

[Cj-Malone]

Temporary things should probably be overlaid via the client like osm.org not in catro it's self.

[Adamant36]

Temporary things should probably be overlaid via the client like osm.org not in catro it's self.

Yeah I know. It's just not as "pure" of a form of mapper feedback that way.

BTW, It's weird I got thumbs down for the comment when it was more of a general musing about things then an actually suggestion to be implemented.

That said, I think there could be some value in encouraging the mapping of things that this style isn't necessarily going to be rendering long-term, but other software will. Like defibrillators for instance. Maybe it's to general of a style to render them for eternity or whatever, but maybe rendering for like 3 or 4 months as part of specific concerted effort to add them to the map would raise awareness about them and benefit other styles that render them. It's not super difficult to add or remove rendering for any particular icon either. It's not like anything else is really going on with the style right now anyway. At least not that I can tell. Although, I'd like to believe there's things going on behind the scenes, but if you want to support a developer community around OSM and the mapping of things beyond the basics then it might be worth the style not being so static in some areas.

[matkoniecz]

BTW, It's weird I got thumbs down for the comment when it was more of a general musing about things then an actually suggestion to be implemented.

I did this because I received notification about mildly related general musing (offtopic) and because it promoted tagging temporary features (offtopic, changes to OSM rules in issue tracker of specific sotware, also I am against such change)

[Adamant36]

I did this because I received notification about mildly related general musing (offtopic) and because it promoted tagging temporary features (offtopic, changes to OSM rules in issue tracker of specific sotware, also I am against such change)

Fair enough.

[HolgerJeromin]

I read your comment as:
We should render additional things (defi) on osm.org main page for a few weeks when we have an special project running.
This style is used on various services with different style update cycle (updates once a year for example).
And which project should cause such a temporary style change? Global projects? Regional projects? local projects?
IMO this does not work.

[Adamant36]

This style is used on various services with different style update cycle (updates once a year for example).
And which project should cause such a temporary style change? Global projects? Regional projects? local projects?
IMO this does not work.

I had thought of that and it would obviously be a blocker to the idea.

[Cj-Malone]

An alternative would be to add rendering sooner rather than later to sync up with these projects, and then perfect it later as needed.

[Cj-Malone]

OSM UK has picked defibs to be the area of focus for Q4 2020. It would be awesome if something was done on this topic.