Vgstation13: Do we want sec glocks?

[Blithering]

It has been requested several times for security to have a ballistic backup pistol available.

Possible pros:

• Allows sec to take down scary cargo men with ablatives on
• Allows sec to take down wizards with EMP
• Ammo gives mechanics something to print in the genfab
• Gives sec another use for holsters to be made in botany
• Stunning detective's pistol analogues would give us an excuse to remove the stun from the assault rifle

Possible cons

• Human harm beep boop
• Possibility of a lot more sec bans
• Power creep
• /k/ might mock us for using glocks and 9mm

It would be nice to hear people's opinions about the matter, reasons for or against, >outlines, or something.

Also download link for icons, with a crappy xcom pistol version as well: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=41144313512137782637

[ghost]

Always good to have alternatives

[TheFriggenSawbones]

yes

[ComicIronic]

Consider that this would severely disable everyone's ability to reliably disarm sec with an EMP. I'd support it if they did no-stun medium brute so sec had to be justified in pulling out lethal force or be punished.

It will shit on wiz balance.

[Exxion]

Wiz itself shits on wiz balance

[ComicIronic]

Doesn't mean we have to throw it away further.

[Killette2]

I feel this is too much of a lethal approach for just officers to take, unless this is an armory exclusive.

Real police need guns, because tasers aren't magic like they are in ss13. In ss13, guns will cause a lot of problems due to bleeding, immense damage, and such all rolled into a stun.

Think of it this way, we ALREADY have problems with the detectives rubber bullet pea shooter, why should we give one to every officer?

And to top it all off, we already have the stun revolver.
Stun revolvers, researched rather easily in RnD, solve this issue by doing the following
-Stun victim
-Does no brute damage
-Takes shells
-Cannot get EMPed (due to taking shells)

The downside is the stun revolvers very limited chamber, which we could always change.

I say nay to this idea, we already have the stun revolvers in game. This will cause, bleeding, pain, and problems.

However, if you want something that IS good for taking down wizards and the like, a reskinned detectives peashooter will not handle that. That is why combat shotguns are plenty in the armory, and orderable from cargo.

p.s.: nobody will ever ask for items from botany except maybe a toolbelt at best, I should know

[FudgePucker]

Maybe a derenger instead of a block.

Two rounds of .38 (or if you want to make it fancy also let it be loaded and shoot magnum shells)

[Blithering]

Stun revolvers are just a six shot taser aren't they? Since when could they take shells?

[Jeroen52]

@Killette2 However this would be primarily used to shoot Wizards, as Wizards can usually just teleport out of stuns and the best way to kill them is to make an unprepared wizard bleed or to slow them down due to damage.

[ghost]

Isn't this basically what the detectives revolver is all about?

[FudgePucker]

Wizards are shit on enough from shotguns enough as is.

I think giving wizards a healing spell that can fix internal bleeding, but also removing their ability to weild guns would be a good way to prevent wizards from dying the second a valid hunter gets a shotgun, but also prevent wizards from teleporting to armory and then murderboning with eguns.

[clusterfack]

Yeah @FudgePucker I've had my eye on such a thing for awhile, now that I'm actually proficient in spells I think I'll give it a shot

[Blithering]

While it's a bit off topic, maybe have the summon guns spell remove the noguns4u flag from the wizard

[FudgePucker]

@clusterfack
Sweet.

Wizard rounds (and antags in general) are somewhat hurt from the armsrace of shit.
If you want to do a gimmick round of removing shoes from the station, you get blasted with a shotgun. So wizards try hard and just time stop stone to flesh murderbone with the entire armory. So some players go and blast the wizard with a shotgun first sighting.

Some times I think bay might be right with there limitations on antag actions and preventing valid hunting. But then I realise that's gay as hell, toolboxes and valids, not bay and erp ok.

[Shadowmech88]

I think it would be nice for the armory to have some basic ballistic pistols stocked, since as of now the only ballistic weapons the warden can distribute are shotguns, which are quite bulky.

That said, I don't think sec officers should _spawn_ with these, or any lethal projectile weapon for that matter.

[Iamgoofball]

Why couldn't he just tase them in the leg?

[Killette2]

If wizards is the main argument against guns for sec, and shotguns are declared "bulky", what about the many guns that fire bullets and can fit in your backpack that RnD can make?

Besides, most wizzymen are scrubs and we see the crew win ragin cajun most of the time. I don't think needing more guns is an issue, especially when the main focus is "guns for security officers".

[ComicIronic]

Those take research and materials, and any savvy wizman blows research early for that reason.

[ghost]

Maybe weaken rubber bullets even more. Then I think they will be a good idea. Det revolver can really hurt. Having guns is fun but asimov is a real pain. Having borgs would pretty much mean you can't shoot anyone if there's a standard/sec borg around or you'll get stun-batoned (Luckily sechuds stop flashes but that wont stop the borg from dragging the guy away from you).
Really I just want more cool guns in the game because they're cool. Even though Space is very sci-fi, it's retro as hell so it would be nice to keep that in.
(Calf holster when? Ankle holster when? Taping your gun to your back Die Hard style when?)

[Iamgoofball]

HANDS UP
DONT SHOOT

[Killette2]

Assault Riffles cost metal and glass only, that is hardly a mineral requirement, the lockbox is the only issue. While research does need to be fast, a wizard will hardly never strike RnD first unless he is very confident and competent.

[Iamgoofball]

GREY LIVES MATTER

[icantthinkofanameritenow]

Perhaps making several of the other guns bulky as well would help with that; after all, how many real assault rifles can fit comfortably into a backpack? Although I do still have that PR removing stuns from the AR, which would also work.

[Killette2]

[ComicIronic]

Our backpacks don't have gun pockets for your rifle.

[Blithering]

If assault rifles are being made into bulky items, this would give another plus to the pistols, portability.
Personally, I feel having a locker full of these at round-start to be distributed as and when they're deemed necessary wouldn't hurt. They'd be an option somewhere between 'all's clear' and 'oh fuck [thing] is out there grab all the guns and pitchforks'.

[GenericGoose]

but then the bad guys can steal the gun locker

[Jalleo]

Just so you are all aware TG had this discussion a while back and even tried it out. It didnt really work out in the end. Goofball can link the PRs.

[icantthinkofanameritenow]

@Jalleo
While I'm not wholly confident in that given that it involves Goofball, I suppose you could link it just so we can get an idea of what's likely to happen should such a feature be implemented.

[liltiptop]

I support this.
Whenever there's a wizzyman, it's grab EMP and kill sec. While shotguns are available, there are few in armory.
As for bans, it's all up to the user to be responsible for their gun. Plus, if an assistant is charging at an officer with a weapon, they should be allowed to drop them, considering a second life is not an issue.

[Killette2]

Second life is an issue, because it's still frowned upon to murder then clone, but often not ban worthy.

[Jalleo]

It was steelpoint that did the PRs there lemme link them as goof hasnt. tgstation/tgstation#12336 tgstation/tgstation#12122 tgstation/tgstation#11689 tgstation/tgstation#11672 tgstation/tgstation#11662
Newest to oldest. The older PRs were test merged.

[icantthinkofanameritenow]

Well, looking through all of that (as well as it's feedback thread at https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4626&start=0) gives a pretty damning condemnation of the whole idea. Doesn't help that the coder for it seems like a dick.

[clusterfack]

Ha, I knew who the coder for it must have been before even looking. Yeah he is the one person who wouldn't know how to do something like this with even an ounce of subtlety.

[icantthinkofanameritenow]

Well then, that opens up the question: how do you do it with subtlety anyway? That whole mess already does a good job of illustrating how badly it can go wrong.

I was sort of thinking of just making the stun revolvers just fire a projectile that counts as a bullet but otherwise acts exactly like a taser bolt, but apart from it being able to negate ablative armor (and manual reloading, given that right now it's just a taser reskin with more shots) it wouldn't be much of a change from its current state.

While I'd like to go back to that old PR of mine I linked to earlier and make the rifle-type weapons bulky, I don't know how well that would work in practice given that the similarly sized energy guns and laser guns have always fit in bags. Making those bulky would likely cause problems for anyone playing HoS, Warden, Captain/HoP, or even Nuke Ops seeing as all of them would be affected too.

[Iamgoofball]

I'M REACHING FOR MY GUN

[Blithering]

From what I can glean from the /tg/ implementation, we definitely don't want these to be seen as an alternative to a taser. They need to be very clearly 'the lethal option'.
Maybe have them spawn in the armoury in a crate with a box of very visible firearms officer badges, partly to show criminals which officers are more likely to blow them away if provoked, but mainly so the HoS can call people loose cannons and have them hand in their gun and badge.

[SonixApache]

Yes, do want.

Spawn in the secure armory lockers in a box with a mag or two each.

[Dizor]

Why not have two versions of it:
Round start ones are a single magazine disposable version
Full glock with reloading can be made/bought.
That way it is a very limited on uses for a standard issue item.
Tator version with Full auto would be cool too.

[SonixApache]

Emagging a glock to lock it into full-auto mode only to explode afterwards?

[Blithering]

@dizor I was thinking on the lines of:
Round start, armoury glocklocker has a box of cheap magazines, can't order more, but mechanics can scan them to be genfabbed.
R&D can produce high capacity magazines that up the ammo count +burstfire (maybe) possibly just having them use the SMG mags, as they are 18 round 9mm already
Also sprited the high cap mag version.

[SarahJohnson489]

I could see 6 in the armory on top of the shotguns with a spare mag each. It fills the niche of a map roundstart backpack ballistic as a counterpart to the 6 energy weapons we have. It helps fill out the armory supply for unofficial code red weapon handouts during carp/spider/madman/etc. during med and highpop. Being in the armory by default keeps it out of the hand of new and or incompetent fucklenuts with terrible judgment that'd hose down the hall after he misses the clown with his whole belt of 7 tasers hitting everybody but his target in the process. See: Castle law sci after their stun revolver is empty and they start hitting other sci's with friendly fire trying to "stop" some harmless guy. Detective's revolver causes enough asimov/s-s-shitcurity! Greytide assemble! shitfits as is. And don't say oh they'll use them responsibly. They wont. They're players in need with a tool. They aren't gonna go well shucky darn guess I'll just go recharge instead of using this nice glock. They're gonna shoot, problems it causes be damned. It's not like dealing with the fallout is their responsibility if they even thought of it at all. Not that it's a problem for decent sec in most rounds but default HoS doesn't have core access and it's a gamble on minerals/HoP/Cap/beating nonantag greytiders/hoping that the AI isn't a muh hoomans to the spare so you can change it instead of being out patrolling or doubling up on cam/cmc duty. Yes, they can change the laws. Fairly easily in fact. It doesn't change that they, and potentially the entire sec force if the AI starts bolt/shutter spam, end up wasting time having a tard tussle with the silicons over it because Validarrest McMUHVALIDSMUHVALIDSVALIDSVALIDS was a hothead for no reason other than he had a ballistic he was capable of firing and didn't know better or bother to care about the fallout.

A toolbox, loose multi, and an ointment to open 2 doors is an acceptably low barrier that will avoid a heap of drama imo. Officers that have trouble with this or getting lethals in general generally shouldn't have them for everyone's safety and lack of headaches, spider apocalypse or not.

It wont have a detrimental effect on syndie emp nades/wiz emp by default if they spawn in the armory. It's even Standard operating procedure compliant.

That said, they should N.O.T. spawn in the secure armory lockers. There's meant to be a balance between a maps security and ease of illicit access by anyone for any reason. Putting them in an immobile nigh-indestructible locker that you can only get into by stealing/killing for an id, nabbing the spare first, borg?, or emagging and people need them cause sec got btfo/NoSecNoHeadsOnlyMurderboneNow/xenos/blob/wiz/vamp what the fuck ever and they're fucked is fucking shit. I'm pretty sure one of the other ways of popping them got fixed so you can't even jump the hoops to do that.