Vgstation13: Changelings absence of tells

[Probe1]

Another guy ate a ban because of how hard it is to prove someone is a changeling without letting him fucking kill you first.

Can we add a stinking blood test please? I hate this.

I hate it.

The other day @Konater walked around halluc stinging everyone in sight and no one could do a damn thing despite the obviousness of what was happening because the only way to know was OOC/metaknowledge. Today someone who is an otherwise decent guy snapped and force borged a guy to find out if he was a ling.

I do not like this mode. It results in salt and overhead.

[CptWad]

LING BLOOD TESTS

[Shadowmech88]

I have heard that a transformed changeling can be ousted by forcing them to sign their name via the [sign] tag. Apparently, it causes them to sign their original name rather than the name of their current identity.

It's a very hacky ling test though, and is only possible due to oversight.

[Probe1]

@Shadowmech88 Nah it's not true. I heard a Captain say it one round and tested it on the spot. Didn't work.

[Exxion]

It's been a long-ass time since I played there, but if memory serves, there's something about cloning a ling on TG

[Killette2]

Lings can't smoke cigarettes/cigars else they explode, it's a proven ling test.

[Manaony]

And then we get sec blood testing everything as soon as someone scream "X absorbing me in dorm" just to be sure. So I'll say no.

[Shadowmech88]

And then we get sec blood testing everything as soon as someone scream "X absorbing me in dorm" just to be sure.

Why can't that be handled in the same way that "Sec dragging everyone to the chapel as soon as someone screams 'X biting me in dorm' just to be sure." would be?

[Manaony]

Remember how that was handled? Chapel effect on vamp got nerfed/removed.

[Konater]

Honk

[Shadowmech88]

How long ago was that? Because I've seen a vampire burst into flames from chapel exposure in the last month or two.

[Killette2]

What if when changelings absorbed someone it left behind a new sludge, maybe a dark green one or something. This can leave footprints and remain on your shoes. Then again, that will probably result in something stupid like someone getting executed for walking across puke.

Also what is wrong with borging someone to ask if they are a ling if you promise to put them back in their body and defib afterwards? Borg them, ask if they're a ling, ahelp saying you're doing this (and have the authorization) so the admins can also see the situation, ask the borg under law 2 if it was a changeling and it cannot lie under asimov, else a bannu happens.

[Killette2]

You can also bargain with a confirmed changeling to get it to try to cooperate with you in exchange for it's freedom, which is risky, but lings cannot sting lings. Just ask the ling to reveal whom it absorbed, recover the bodies, and make sure it doesn't kill anyone else while monitoring it very carefully.

[Manaony]

Actually I was wrong, it wasn't removed or nerfed at all I might have mistaken the PR or it was re-added later on. I'm still against it though it on the same level as syndie-cake shittery.

[9600bauds]

Actually when Konater was doing the thing everyone was 100% sure who it was and I was 100% sure nobody would bwoink me for cremating the clown, but I didn't due to a mix of laughing my ass off at the situation and wishing they would do anything remotely antagonistic due to how fucking dull Changeling is, especially when it goes on for one hour longer than it should.

[Probe1]

kinda leads to my point I think. changelings don't feel the pressure to antagonize and do things.

[Blithering]

Personally I think the whole mode needs a rework, even with the new adjusted horror form and death sting costs, you almost never see lings going loud before they've sucked off monkeymen for an hour.
If their victims became a part of them, similar to https://github.com/d3athrow/vgstation13/pull/9066 , and gave similar abilities, lings would become noticeably nonhuman faster, and also become stronger faster. Ling testing would be a case of looking for the guy who's arm is a massive scything tentacle or somesuch.

[Shadowmech88]

That would make changelings the only antag that would be unable to increase their power level without breaking their cover.
Not necessarily saying that's bad, just pointing it out.

[AutismSpider]

@Shadowmech88 What the fuck is vamp m8?

if they try use vamp powers out in the open holy beat down by ai borgs and the crew piss easy to test for vamp you risk a ban testing for ling

[Iamgoofball]

"guys lets add antag tests for every antag"

[CptWad]

Most antags have tells but ling, good antags know not to show off the tells
its just lings specifically that are a problem

[Iamgoofball]

the only tell should be getting caught or being suspicious, otherwise it's going to be "alright crew line up for free blood tests, resist and we laser/space your corpse after a blood test"

[Exxion]

That's why a blood test isn't a good idea for this server
There needs to be a tell, but one that isn't feasible to perform en masse

[Shadowmech88]

When vampires are confirmed Security doesn't just tell everyone to gather in the chapel so they can see who bursts into flames, despite the fact that it's a guaranteed test for being a vampire.

[ihadtoregisterforthis]

That's not unheard of either.

[Manaony]

Mandatory chapel party sponsored by security is a documented side-effect of stealth vampire outbreak.

[Shadowmech88]

Is it not against the rules? I know someone's gotten banned in the past for dragging people to the chapel to test them for vampirism.

[9600bauds]

Only because it was medRP

[CptWad]

Primary issue for bloodtesting is that people can run around taking blood samples of everyone which is easier than dragging each sorry ass all the way to the chapel
That and theres only ever 1-3 vampires when theres 1 or 3-5 lings based on pop
heres an idea, to test it would be having changelings have an incurable un-spreadable virus
Since viruses are only scanable with the bodyscanners and not healthscanners, you would simply try to cure the virus in virology and if no antibodies are created (special message for the antibody scanner) then you prove your ling

[Probe1]

We can make the blood test easier than the chapel test
blood must be in a glass container (beakers et al). blood must be subject to heat for 120 seconds.
blood of a changeling does something dramatic and dangerous.

There, now you basically have to use the bunsen burner or else you're gonna get real tired of holding a lit welder/lighter for 2 minutes not moving.

[AutismSpider]

@Probe1 Thats whats done on goon blood is put in a beaker and you slap the beaker with a welding too or put it on a burner

Ling blood on goon can be use to make funny drinks and other stuff

[Probe1]

goon has it right.

[Iamgoofball]

"mandatory security run party in chemistry lab for ling checking"

[Probe1]

who doesn't like a sec party? :postal_horn: :tada: :balloon:

[9600bauds]

You could argue that the "mandatory X check" issue would already apply to random searches, which aren't really a big issue

Now: Why are random searches not a big issue?

[Probe1]

Because if they're done on code green its a bannu and if people are flipping to blue/red without any justification admins will fuck with them.

[9600bauds]

So do that for blood tests

[Probe1]

Sure. It'd be the same as (On code green) dragging people to the chapel to check and see if they might be a vampire, or mass implanting the crew at roundstart because they might be revs, and so on.

[AutismSpider]

@Probe1 when the heads are not jerking off to set it to code blue or red like hell its fight and half to get it to code red on fucking blob half the time

[Probe1]

@AutismSpider Lately heads have been way more active about popping blue/red when I'm observing. Historically, it has been a big issue with heads either being incompetent or not recognizing there is a serious issue that needs a code elevation.

Bottom line is I feel it's an IC issue that we can work on as players, not as coders or admins.

[kol1th]

I don't agree with this at all. I've been """randomly tested""" as a vampire without doing any antag stuff yet, and with no announcements of vampires over comms. It was bullshit and I didn't get to do anything with my antag round because of it. It'll just add more ways to validhunt and I don't think it should exist.

Perhaps add residue of some sort (a stinger?) in the husk that can be found via autopsy scanner, that will have traces of DNA with it. That would be a more one by one case, rather than CHECK EVERYONE'S BLOOD WE GOT LINGS, like happens in cult and vampire.

[Brolaire]

ever since probe started this thread ive been trying to think of something that makes lings more obvious without inciting validhunts at roundstart where security feeds people holy water while cooking their blood and implanting them in the chapel.

The best I could come up with in terms of tells was "Give the lings cool mutations that make it obvious they're lings".
Like, /tg/ for example has armblades. Armblades are real fucking neato, and make it hella obvious you're a ling. We don't have to rip off /tg/ but similar things, maybe some sort of hivehand that leave unique "bullet casings" or stains on your clothes or change the way your character looks unclothed could be interesting. Besides that, introducing tells is a bad idea with the current mindset of the playerbase.

[Probe1]

Back to back changeling rounds where changelings were allowed to just do whatever without fear of persecution because of the absence of blood tests has hardened my resolve on this.

[Killette2]

Heheh, Probe said he's hard.

[AutismSpider]

@kol1th We have some thing like that you meme loving fuck do autopsy on part you think the ling suck them off read out gives you a stinger.

[9600bauds]

Can you do anything with that stinger?

[Probe1]

yea now lets all just get killed and hope the changeling doesn't drag our body to maint for the succ

[AutismSpider]

@9600bauds cant do shit with it just one of the tells the body was drain by a ling.

We have no real way to prove X is a ling but we lot of ways to know a ling on the loose stinger cloner can't pick up dna form the body lack of blood form the body and so on

[ComicIronic]

Antag testing is terrible, but lings aren't obligated to go loud for the most part.

How about the blood test is possible after spending a certain number of ling coins? It would incentivise a low cost stealth hard mode and going full throttle if you know you can be detected.

[Killette2]

Ling coins?
That is lame, why can't we do detective work? What happened to retrieve a found body then question it?

See a body, autopsy it and you get a stinger, match the DNA of a stinger to the DNA of a changeling (transforming can throw this off, giving a ling a reason to try to impersonate their victims).

Blood test are BAD if it involves a blood sample. The only way you can test if someone is a vampire, is if you actually have that person with you, which is reasonable.

[ComicIronic]

A blood test without the ling present isn't going to be very useful since they can always transform. It's only going to be effective if you can follow the blood directly, which would mean having the ling there with you to test.

[Probe1]

Give me whatever you got.

Changelings have:

• Instant one hit stealth kills
• Instant one hit silence
• Instant one hit paralysis
• Undetectable unless they use their powers in front of someone and all their advantages in stealth fail them.

It's all the bad ideas we've ever had rolled into one. Almost all changeling rounds end up as extended. There is no pressure on the antags. They are free to quietly hoard monkeymen (which is a problem in itself).

At this point "IT WORKS" but anything would be an improvement over half of all changeling rounds ending up getting bussed because everyone is bored.

[Shadowmech88]

Pretty much the only way to oust a ling that isn't enough of an idiot to use his powers _in front of_ someone is to find a husk with their prints on it. Assuming they didn't wear gloves when handling it.

Contrast this with traitors and cultists who must carry their gear _on their person_ if they want to be most effective, and vampires which can be ousted simply by dragging them into the chapel or splashing them with holy water.

Changelings are the only antags that could reach maximum power and still there would be no way to even provide _evidence_ to the fact that they're a changeling if no one saw them use an ability.

[Killette2]

@Shadowmech88

There's no way to test who the real mindswapping wizard is, unless there's something only the real person would know (like their account info but who would think to think of that in a wiz round)

[Blithering]

How about having the ling's victims leave a stinger in the body which can be removed via the usual item retrieval surgery, and can then be scanned for DNA? Not possible to do on the fly, so ling has a chance to dump his identity for a new one and escape, and also gives a downside to just staying as one ID, sucking off monkeymen for two hours then fucking off.

[Probe1]

FInding a husked corpse is a sign the ling fucked up.

[Killette2]

Not to mention, you can still just arrest someone if they are doing bad shit during a ling round. You have chemical weaponry, handcuffs, and an energy gun when changelings are out murdering people, and expect to be let off easy during such a crisis?

[9600bauds]

Just had a round where the lings did nothing for nearly one hour and half, except one of them just made a phazon and murderboned instead. Why would you risk absorbing anyone when you can just muderbone via conventional methods and have better results?

I think that rather than lack of a ling test, the problem is that ling powers suck (and they get kind of shafted by silicons). Give them cool powers to encourage them to actually antagonize. Maybe they won't play R&D Solitaire for one hour and half instead.

[Kurfursten]

@Killette2 (Testing mindswapped wiz) You can ask them what their blood type is

An upgraded body scanner will tell you blood type (also you can just fill an empty bloodbag with their blood and see what kind fills it)

@9600bauds That's the first time I've ever heard someone say a rechargeable parapen sucks.

[9600bauds]

It kinda sucks considering you don't have any of the other uplink items

[9600bauds]

Also: Mindswap and transforming REALLY should be transferring player notes

[Kurfursten]

Why? I think it makes total sense that if a wizard swaps with your mind he doesn't know your ATM info or blood type - that's in your mind.

[Probe1]

every time changeling comes up now a days people bitch because of the issues discussed here and we should get to it sooner or later.

[9600bauds]

http://www.strawpoll.me/10140319/r

[Shadowmech88]

It feels a little exploitative to oust a ling just by asking them for information that they are mechanically unable to access.

[Probe1]

And people are gonna exploit that if it works. Unless we say its against the rules. Then people are gonna get banned. And admins are gonna make the issue I made 1 month ago.

Changeling is still shit. The arguments against blood tests are weak. They say that antag checks are bad. But every. single. mode (except blob?) has an antag check. Yeah, they're not all "Beat and feed cindi kates and see if he heals". But they're all there.

Syndicate: Physical evidence (viscerator grenades to emags to whatever syndie only toy they may have).
Vampire: Catches fucking fire in the presence of God
Rev: Implants
Cult: Holy water et al plus physical evidence
Blob: ??? I have no idea and they always pop before anyone knows there's an antag
Borer (defunct): scannable with the advanced scanner
Heist: Physical Evidence
Wizard: Physical Evidence/casts spells at people
Changeling : Antag checks? IN MY VGSTATION?

[AutismSpider]

Holy water works on non max power vamps. on top of this vamps take null damage form being hit by the holy book and null rod in turn they catch fire and die form this.

[Kurfursten]

@AutismSpider Unless it's been fixed from when Kilkun buffed them, a full power vampire takes almost no damage from chugging huge amounts of holy water, and also immune to holy tiles.

[9600bauds]

Holy water is also a crapshoot due to #7786 making it so that the average vampire has less than 5% chance for the water to do anything at all

[nuklearcellphoneg]

Hello!!

What if:

1) You could do blood tests

2) You needed a fancy machine located in genetics to do the blood test which was immovable but not unbuildable/uncopyable.

3) The machine could process X number of blood tests at a time(1? 2? 3?)

4) It would take 15 minutes of time in order to process the blood(or 10 if upgraded?)

In this way, it is abusable but gives the ling time to do something tricky.

Let's be honest though, the best test is asking the dude what you said to him at the beginning of the shift, or etc.

[Shadowmech88]

That's a decent solution, but you'd need to give the machine a use _other_ than ling tests.
Having an entire machine that exists JUST for testing whether someone is a changeling seems silly.

[Kurfursten]

10 minute blood tests, or even 15

Sounds good to me, just take away changeling speech of course so that they can't call for friends while waiting TEN MINUTES for testing, and also make it invulnerable because genetics is right next to maintenance and we all know the first objective any changeling is going to have in a round before going loud - disassemble or bomb the blood tester.

[Probe1]

 >you might be a changeling!
 >now wait here for as long as a major brig sentence!
you're trying to keep us employed by generating even more ahelps.

[Probe1]

@AutismSpider
If there is a full power vampire you don't need to check. He'll let you know.

[nuklearcellphoneg]

@Probe1

Changeling is an extremely deceptive roundtype. I can murder someone in plain view in the hallway, run away to the bar, sit next to a patron, absorb their identity, change into them, then change them into my previous self, and laugh in :G while they drag them off.

On second thought, let's not put in any tells.

[Probe1]

The options as they stand to the players are:

Make it not shit.
Remove it.

Every time changeling comes up people bitch. It's extended + getting taken out of the round at a random point in time.

[AutismSpider]

Changeling is fucking extended all they do is suck off monkey humans.

they have the build in fucking sting to turn them into humans etc

[Iamgoofball]

do the needful

just remove changeling entirely

[AutismSpider]

@Iamgoofball That be smart thing to do odds are its not going happen.

Take it out or put some type of test we have four fucking ways to test for vamp zero for ling

[Iamgoofball]

or just give the changeling loud options like tg armblade

[9600bauds]

That's part of the solution, yeah.
Until then, REMOVE LING remove ling or at least replace it with traitor+ling

[ComicIronic]

That will only work if we somehow get rid of monkeysuck.

The point is that, no matter how loud lings are able to go, few of them are ever going to do it. New abilities just aren't worth losing stealth for.

[Blithering]

Maybe make their disguise degrade over time, slowly taking clone damage until they change into a new identity?

[AutismSpider]

@Iamgoofball We have to take out monkey suck for that to work here.

All the ling rounds we had so far it was one to two hours of them sucking off monkeys then death sting spam or they got in a mech/got ton of guns and kill the crew with that.

[9600bauds]

REMOVE LING remove ling