Openstreetmap-carto: Add icon for denomination=jehovahs_witness
Hello everyone I want to propose the change of icon for the Christian religion = jehovahs witness, now we can see it like this:
As an icon of a person kneeling praying, I think it is the generic one for those who do not have a common denomination.
From there I want to change it and present this icon, it's my first time presenting some improvement to the map, so if I have something else forgive me.
Here the icon:
Currently has almost more than 5000 uses, we can see here:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=jehovahs_witness#values
HALCONDEORO
All 22 comments
I'm worried that we can't solve it. As I know, we don't use abbreviations in our icons. Firstly, "JW" abbreviation is correct only in English (eg. in Polish it would be "ŚJ"), and secondly, it can be mistaken for "SJW" (social justice warriors). On the other hand jehovahs witnesses don't have any well-known own symbol, which could be used as icon.
Tomasz-W
on 30 Jun 2018
@Tomasz-W they have the Watchtower symbol. There's some pretty simplistic versions of it online that would a good icon. Maybe it could be combined with the JW or something so its not confused with a regular watchtower. Although it would be SJ in polish, JW is probably pretty universally well known as their abreviation and it would theoretically be easy to tell the meaning from it being attached to a church building or religious area. Where as there is nothing catographically speaking about social justice warriors that I know of. They dont have meetings, own buildings, etc etc. So I doubt anyone would mistake it for that. Although, honestly I think if done right the watchtower symbol would probably work good enough. By itself.
Adamant36
on 30 Jun 2018
In general we keep this style region-agnostic, what would mean avoid letters in a particular script within icons. 5000 uses is not so high usage, so the symbol must be really intuitive to work. If not, it’s just a symbol that is seldom used and nobody will recognize it because you don’t remember in which context you have seen it last time. I think a watchtower is _not_ intuitive.
sommerluk
on 30 Jun 2018
@sommerluk my bad. I thought the general OSM rule is that it goes by British English. Like the use centre instead of center. I wasnt aware that didnt extend to the style. I do agree that letters in icons is probably not a good idea in general. I think people who know what the watchtower is and are looking for a church from that particular denomination will understand it though. Id guess most people know including myself dont know what a kissing gate is let alone do I, but there is still an icon proposel it. So there are icons already that only appeal to a certain nitch.
As a related side note, I happen to be looking at the values for the name tag the other day and there are currently over 2000 uses of the name "Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses" Thats about half as many as are tagged. I dont know if each individual kindom hall has its own unique name or not, but id guess at lot of those are probably named that in violation of the name rule so people can tell them apart from just a normal Christain church on the map. Adding an icon would probably help with that a lot.
Adamant36
on 30 Jun 2018
Isnt the Hinduist icon Sanskrit letters that mean Aum or Om?
Adamant36
on 30 Jun 2018
Thank you all for the answers, I have considered the use of the JW for the following reasons, in all or almost all the Kingdom Hall of the world have that logo or identifier on its façade or on a door near the door, attached images of salons of the 5 contientes around the world:
Murcia, Spain:
Bensalem, Pensilvania, USA:
Ibaraki, Japan:
Dakar, Senegal:
Soacha, Cundinamarca, Colombia:
Territorio del Norte, Australia:
Here you can see what is specifically a Kingdom Hall.
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovahs-witnesses-church-kingdom-hall/
Here we can see where all the Kingdoms Hall of the world are located, I do not know how to export it or if it could be done legally, but it helps to locate them:
https://apps.jw.org/ui/S/meeting-search.html#/weekly-meetings/
HALCONDEORO
on 30 Jun 2018
According to the wiki, I believe the church in the original post is tagged wrong (but there is no link). It shouldn't be religion=jehovas_witness, it should be:
amenity=place_of_worship
religion=christian
denomination=jehovas_witness
It would then be rendered with a cross, which I believe is the most appropriate icon ("JW" is not an icon, it's just more text).
meased
on 30 Jun 2018
They do not use a cross to identify themselves as Christians as we can see here, their official website:
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/cross-belief/
I do not think it is convenient to use an icon that does not represent them, it may be convenient to surround the acronym JW or the symbol of the watchtower is convenient.
HALCONDEORO
on 30 Jun 2018
They do not use a cross to identify themselves as Christians as we can see here, their official website:
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/cross-belief/
I do not think it is convenient to use an icon that does not represent them, it may be convenient to surround the acronym JW or the symbol of the watchtower is convenient.
They probably are tagged correctly, but there's code to render them without the cross:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/85918db08c0e5df3d16276906f2597380ddd0663/amenity-points.mss#L558-L561
lakedistrictOSM
on 30 Jun 2018
I do not think it is convenient to use an icon that does not represent them
Taco Bell has a burger icon. An icon is supposed to be symbolic. There is already special rendering to avoid the cross, and I think the kneeling figure is the next best icon (for both JW and non-JW). I don't see an issue here.
meased
on 30 Jun 2018
sent from a phone
On 30. Jun 2018, at 22:31, meased notifications@github.com wrote:
Taco Bell has a burger icon.
this is not a suitable analogy, people do not believe in burgers. It is better not to put an icon than one that is not appropriate.
dieterdreist
on 30 Jun 2018
Ref #1058
HolgerJeromin
on 1 Jul 2018
Thanks for all the work on this. However, I think adding an icon for Jehovah's Witnesses is way too specific. If we do this, we'll end up adding an icon for every single denomination. I think the silhouette of the worshipping perfect is perfectly fine.
I'd propose therefore to reject this issue.
matthijsmelissen
on 1 Jul 2018
sent from a phone
On 1. Jul 2018, at 09:44, Matthijs Melissen notifications@github.com wrote:
I think adding an icon for Jehovah's Witnesses is way too specific. If we do this, we'll end up adding an icon for every single denomination.
currently used 5700 times
dieterdreist
on 1 Jul 2018
I'd propose therefore to reject this issue.
Yes, me too. “JW.org” isn’t an icon, but an Internet address. The usage is with 5 700 not really so high that is needs an own icon, and the map usage will be less intuitive. (By the way, I have in general the feeling that recently our icon set becomes a little bit over-differentiated.)
sommerluk
on 1 Jul 2018
Ok, so thanks for the report, but I agree that the current icon is better than proposed solution, so I close the issue. If there will be another solution in the future, it could be reopened.
kocio-pl
on 1 Jul 2018
@HALCONDEORO Thanks anyway for the bug report!
sommerluk
on 1 Jul 2018
Hallo. I propose cross + crown in one symbol. Examples: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Crosscrown_2.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crosscrown.svg
A more modern form that I I suggest to consider:
https://s33.postimg.cc/fvvy50ny7/cross.png
"They do not use a cross to identify themselves as Christians" I know that.
A very popular and characteristic symbol is the tower "Watchtower" https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Watchtower.svg
Besides, Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians, but in their case, the symbol of Christendom is not showing up. Is this a problem of rendering or tagging?
The ID editor during work shows the correct religion symbol.
Slawek234
on 13 Sep 2018
Where did you get this idea? How is it related to JW?
kocio-pl
on 13 Sep 2018
Where did you get this idea? How is it related to JW?
From the Internet e.g key words "jehovah's symbol" https://duckduckgo.com, http://google.com, https://yandex.com,
Slawek234
on 13 Sep 2018
From the Internet e.g key words "jehovah's symbol" https://duckduckgo.com, http://google.com, https://yandex.com,
Have you done more than a visual image search? :-)
https://jehovahswitnessesexhibition.weebly.com/items-and-artifacts.html
Since 1936, Jehovah's Witnesses have rejected the belief that Jesus died on the cross. They believe that the place of death was a wooden stake.
@Slawek234
The ID editor during work shows the correct religion symbol.
iD renders a cross. The whole github issue comes from the point hat the cross is a wrong icon for JW.
HolgerJeromin
on 13 Sep 2018
This is a great idea for this specific issue (JW),, but I don't believe it
would work well as a general rule. It isn't practical to render different
symbols for every denomination tag. It would be too difficult for the map
user to interpret several different shapes of cross for different Christian
denominations, for example.
We could decide that certain demoninations are different enough that they
count as different religions, but that would be controversial. While I
personally consider JW and LDS (mormons) to be different religions, they
self-identify as Christians. There are many similar non-orthodox sects in
Africa and Asia.
And what about Orthodox vs Catholic vs Protestant? Sunni vs Shia vs Ahmadi
other Muslim sects? Wikipedia lists: Khawarij, Ibadi, Zaidiyyah, Twelver,
Kektashisa, KalmaIt etc.
Sticking with rendering the religion type only is probably the most useful
solution for the general map user, since the names and symbols of the
largest religions are well known, while those of denominations or sects are
not.
On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 12:35 AM Holger Jeromin notifications@github.com
wrote:
From the Internet e.g key words "jehovah's symbol" https://duckduckgo.com,
http://google.com, https://yandex.com,Have you done more than a visual image search? :-)
https://jehovahswitnessesexhibition.weebly.com/items-and-artifacts.html
Since 1936, Jehovah's Witnesses have rejected the belief that Jesus died
on the cross. They believe that the place of death was a wooden stake.@Slawek234 https://github.com/Slawek234
The ID editor during work shows the correct religion symbol.iD renders a cross. The whole github issue comes from the point hat the
cross is a wrong icon for JW.—
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jeisenbe
on 14 Sep 2018
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Most helpful comment
Thanks for all the work on this. However, I think adding an icon for Jehovah's Witnesses is way too specific. If we do this, we'll end up adding an icon for every single denomination. I think the silhouette of the worshipping perfect is perfectly fine.
I'd propose therefore to reject this issue.