Lmms: Handling GM Midi Drum set in Beat+Bassline Editor

[binyominzeev]

If one wants to use a GM drum of a soundfont, currently there are two ways for it (as far as I know):

1. On a single track, using Piano Roll, or
2. By adding several soundfont players in Beat+Bassline Editor.

See both versions here:

The problem with the first one that it loses the flexibility to manage in Song Editor (see top of the picture, with the lot of small patterns). The second one would be just great if there was a way to choose the sound to play in an easy way.

However, currently there is this lightgreen button over the piano keys (in window "kick", near C5 on screenshot), but this works kind of counter-intuitive, at least in this case. Often I am unable to figure it out, where to pull the green button to get the simple desired sound.

Would it be possible to have a way to choose the piano key directly? For example, by using right mouse button. Thank you very much!

[Spekular]

Right click on the steps in BB editor and choose "open in piano roll". This lets you play different notes in the BB pattern.

[tresf]

Mostly a duplicate of https://github.com/LMMS/lmms/issues/1460.

Note, that sound fonts aren't the only limitation. Any drum-sampler instrument will suffer the same problem. We should consider
something like GTG DPC 3 as a front-end. And, yes, as @Spekular states, this will all work just fine in the piano roll editor albeit confusing at first, it's not uncommon in a DAW.

Perhaps a good stop-gap is to implement a piano-roll view/toggle for the standard labels for MIDI drums.

[binyominzeev]

@Spekular: I know, but this workaround has the problem of not being able to modify the sounds later. For example, if it was originally a kick, and I moved them to snare, and I want to add a new snare, it will play a kick again. (By the way, this could be solved by writing a method that checks if (for example) most of the notes were moved, then the new notes should play there.)

[tresf]

but this workaround has the problem of not being able to modify the sounds later.

Can you please elaborate?

[binyominzeev]

I did. See "For example".

[tresf]

I did. See "For example".

There are problems with using a piano roll for drums, but your explanation doesn't make sense without creative thinking which is why I've asked you to elaborate. If you don't have time to do that, we don't have time to ask again.

[binyominzeev]

Sorry, I didn't want to waste your time. I just didn't see how can I describe it clearer. Maybe with a picture:

Here if I enter the first three notes of "tom lo" in the BB editor, it creates new notes at the default note (now it is A4). Then I move them to D#4. Afterwards, I write the fourth note in BB editor, and it is A4 again. I think it would make more sense to be D#4, as the rest of the notes, since this way I can modify my pattern later on without opening Piano Roll. So that it remembers my choice of drum type I wanted to use.

[binyominzeev]

Would it be possible to choose a key directly here by right clicking the mouse (for example)?

This way it would be possible to edit it without the piano roll, in a much more elegant fashion. See my screenshot above.

Please reopen this issue, since I explained it. I made two specific suggestions, any of them would be a big help and improvement for editing drums, without introducing new interface.

1. Choosing a key directly in the instrument properties
2. When adding a new note in BB editor, use the ones that are present in the Piano Roll.

I explain any of them more detailed, if this is still not clear enough.

[tresf]

Choosing a key directly in the instrument properties

You can do this here:

When adding a new note in BB editor, use the ones that are present in the Piano Roll.

I think this is a duplicate of your first bullet point. The point I'm trying to make is that the step sequencer simply isn't really designed around an instrument which has specific note data. It works, but it's a hack and is misleading because the step sequencer shows the note being hit, but it isn't the base note of A5 -- or whatever it is set to -- like one would expect. Changing it is confusing to anyone opening your project. Perhaps we need an indicator on each note B5 or whatever.

Instead -- rather non-intuitively, you should consider using a full blown piano roll segment, where each note has a length. This is especially useful with VST drum kits as you'll only need to load one instance of the plugin into memory for the drum roll. You can also adjust the arrangement without opening multiple tracks.

The real disadvantage to the full-blown-piano-roll approach is there's no per note envelope (which SF2 and VSTs don't work with anyway) or per-note filters, so there are certainly limitations to whichever approach you decide to use.

[binyominzeev]

1. Yes, I know, but it is designed for fine-tuning a real instrument, not the drum keys. Therefore if I want to hear a kick, for example, and I drag the green box to its key, I will hear something completely different. Since it sets the base note, not the played note. Or should it set the played one and is it just a bug?

Anyway, I suggested to have a context menu for the individual keys, designed especially for drums, like this:

I think it would not ruin the interface.

1. No, it is a separate suggestion. Currently when I set a note in BB editor, it is an A5. Let's say I set four of them. Then I switch to Piano Roll, and move all four to C3 (for example). After this, if I want to set a fifth note, in the same line, I would expect it to be C3, as all the other notes. But currently it creates A5 again, and does not take into consideration all the other notes.

No "per note envelope": I think it is very good if I can tune every other parameter (gain, for example) separately, for every type of drums. Which works currently fine in SF2. Piano Roll, on the other hand is very good when I want to write the drums from scratch, since I don't have to add every drum seperately, I can start playing immediately. Which leads me to a third possible suggestion:

1. Conversion of existing piano roll drum to BB editor format. Would it be possible, by a single click, for a short drum pattern? To separate all the notes into separate tracks, so I can tune them individually. Furthermore, it is much easier in Song Editor to make loops of them then the copy-paste approach which is necessary for a Piano Roll-version.

[binyominzeev]

I made an animation about the 2. point:

[tresf]

it is much easier in Song Editor to make loops of them then the copy-paste approach which is necessary for a Piano Roll-version.

BBEditor can hold piano roll segments, so this will work regardless.

Anyway, I suggested to have a context menu for the individual keys, designed especially for drums, like this:

Right, you want the polar opposite behavior of what the basenote does today. For now, you can keep hitting the "Y" key on your keyboard and drag the base note until the desired instrument plays. That's the fastest way to get what you're asking for.

Long-term it sounds like you want a feature which slides the base-note relative to the key pressed. Again, this has nothing to do with drums as any instrument can benefit from it. I too have always found the base-note behavior to be counter-intuitive. Perhaps we're in for a change?

I'll need some help first though. @softrabbit @Umcaruje do you have an idea why the base-note behavior is opposite? I too find myself setting the base-note from (for example) A5 to A6 and instead of pitching the entire instrument up and octave, it goes down an octave. Is this how other DAWs handle it?

This affects drum plugins and patches in a similar fashion, one has to use trial-and-error to find the right note for a particular instrument.

[binyominzeev]

BBEditor can hold piano roll segments, so this will work regardless.

Actually that is not so easy in practice. A one-click conversion would be much more convenient, instead of the following 3-step process:

1. Editing in Piano Roll (inside BB editor):

1. Separating the tracks:

1. Using the small notes (do they have a name?) which is recognized as editable directly by BB editor (without entering Piano Roll):

Although all three versions produce the same sound, for later editing purposes, creating variations, and controlling the individual parameters the third is the best.

By the way, is there a way to enter immediately this shorter note into Piano Roll, so that the third step can be avoided?

[musikBear]

@binyominzeev This is easy to 'fix' with a low-tech method.
You simply make a diagram, fi. in a spreadsheet, of where all the different percussion-sounds are 'placed' in respect to what position the base-note has.
Then just use this primitive data-sheet, as reference, as you build your percussion

[binyominzeev]

Yes, indeed, it is a faster manual method than mine. Thank you for your suggestion. Although I thought a one-click solution would be a relatively easy and useful improvement for LMMS, making it compelling for several users.