ncoelho
All 16 comments
BIP84 -Papiersicherung Bitcoin Konten 15.pdf
Inspiration: The template i use to secure blue wallets for my friends
Abstraktikus
on 22 Mar 2020
What about social securing through several wallets based on the model of Shamir's Secret? - Papers have lots of downsides.
Connect 5 friends --> secure. --> ask 3 for recovery --> reconstruct.
https://iancoleman.io/slip39/
https://iancoleman.io/shamir39/
https://iancoleman.io/shamir/
Abstraktikus
on 22 Mar 2020
@Abstraktikus wow thats awesome!
As for SSS, Im not a fan. Like, giving away parts of your secret is just bad opsec: "Look at me, I got something to hide, probably significant amounts of money!".
But should be pretty easy to implement, for export screen for example. Maybe we should add it to a roadmap.
Or how do you think it should work, @Abstraktikus ?
Overtorment
on 23 Mar 2020
Lol. Excellent response. I partially agree. Sorry. Long answer. Here’s the why:
Paper = an easy recovery for partners and survivors. Good for people with a safe (or brain). But to print a paper without WLAN, without word synchronization, without people putting their phrase into the clipboard or taking an additional photo for google drive... impossible. Hence, it always needs a companion app to check the offline status.
Shamir's Secret = The house can burn down, needs no password. People stop cutting the words and forget the sequence. Depending the distribution, no extortion is possible (unless you have children ;-) But most important: If someone manage to collect 2 of 3 parts, it will not help him to break the secret more easily. Here is why I partially agree. Thanks to Shamir’s secret you don’t give away a part of your secret. You only distribute trash. Therefore, I see not only a chance for SSS, but also to (encrypted) distribute an electronic backup to different devices or locations. Still bad opsec? Google Adi Shamir. He is the inventor of the RSA-Key. Google Shamir's Secret. If you are interested, I would try to come up with a flow. I hate to hear from gold bugs that bitcoin cannot be stored unconfiscatable ;-)
An export screen with x passphrases (https://iancoleman.io/slip39/) would be a great idea. But: Backup solutions from a single partner don't work for me (my biggest fear regarding your upcoming multi signature wallet. There must by a solution to reinstall the backup in bitcoin core or electrum.) Hence: A second SLIP39 implementation (in cooperation Iancoleman with your team) would be great as this would offer a unique selling point OS and platform agnostic web backup tool. On the other side, people procrastinate even to write down 24 words with no clue of the future price potential of bitcoin. To write down 5 x 24 words error free, you need to be a freak. Means this better needs a companion app, hence needs a barcode solution or OCR scanner, means, you must print it, means people start to use WLAN…. And this is exactly, why I love the potential that Shamir’s secret offers.
Please proof this security concept again, bevor you make a quick conclusion. It could offer a nice solution, not yet offered by any other wallet. Your Conclusion? In which manner should I keep thinking about a watch-only wallet import solution?
1.) SS Blue Wallet SSS-Solution
2.) SS Blue Wallet non SSS-Solution
3.) Companion app (all options).
4.) No thinking limits as long as easy and secure
Abstraktikus
on 25 Mar 2020
Abstraktikus
on 25 Mar 2020
I think Shamir secret share is awesome. We can start with simple case - create compatible solution with Trezor using https://github.com/ilap/slip39-js
Then, maybe, add ability to export any kind of wallet in this manner.
limpbrains
on 8 Jun 2020
Currently digging into SSS.
Reading through https://blog.keys.casa/shamirs-secret-sharing-security-shortcomings/
Overtorment
on 8 Jun 2020
I believe the drawback on sss compared to multisig is that sss is not
verifiable, thus trust on the creator/software is necessary?
Am I wrong?
On Mon, 8 Jun 2020 at 20:49, Overtorment notifications@github.com wrote:
Currently digging into SSS.
Reading through
https://blog.keys.casa/shamirs-secret-sharing-security-shortcomings/—
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ncoelho
on 8 Jun 2020
I believe the drawback on sss compared to multisig is that sss is not verifiable
I'm not sure what you mean by verifiable, that by having one share you can't check the integrity of another? It is true
thus trust on the creator/software is necessary
Correct
But I'm not thinking of sss as a complete opposite thing to multisig. The usage is different.
Imagine you already have a wallet in BW with significant amount of money and you just need to backup it. You're already trusting BW. Now you can use 12 words, but it is much more secure to use 2 of 3 or 3 of 5 sss.
I agree that well-designed multisig workflow could be better than sss.
My initial plan to add sss to BW was to be able to reconstruct Entropy from sss trezor backup and create regular HD wallet. Unfortunately slip39 is not just about Entropy encoding. They also altered key derivation scheme. This means there is no way to convert bip39 wallet to slip39 :(
If we add ability to backup current BIP39 wallets using sss they will be not interoperable with Trezor sss and may lead to a lot of confusion.
I'm still thinking it will be a nice feature, I will try to do more research on it.
cc @prusnak
limpbrains
on 9 Jun 2020
This means there is no way to convert bip39 wallet to slip39 :(
That is a feature by design - if you convert BIP39 to SLIP39 and your coins are stolen - how do you know whether the old backup (BIP39) or the new setup (SLIP39) was compromised?
prusnak
on 9 Jun 2020
who else supports SLIP39 ? if we implement as-is, how much compatibility across the industry we will get?
Overtorment
on 9 Jun 2020
Electrum supports recovery apparently
https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/pull/5692
On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Overtorment notifications@github.com wrote:
who else supports SLIP39 ? if we implement as-is, how much compatibility
across the industry we will get?—
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ncoelho
on 9 Jun 2020
Electrum supports recovery apparently
This is only to control Trezor with Electrum. Electrum itself doesn't support creating/restoring SLIP39 backups
https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/issues/5419
who else supports SLIP39 ? if we implement as-is, how much compatibility across the industry we will get?
I can't find any besides Trezor
It would be nice to be able to import Trezor SLIP39 wallet, but I can't find any working tools to implement it.
Theoretically it is possible to convert BIP39 to 59 words length SLIP39, but again no working tools and I doubt it would be useful in practice.
A few links:
- https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/93413/whats-the-relationship-between-slip39-and-bip39
- https://github.com/iancoleman/slip39/issues/1#issuecomment-563213494
- https://github.com/BlockchainCommons/bc-lethekit/issues/38
Looks like it is too early. Perhaps in future somebody will create standard to backup BIP39 to sss, but it is not here yet.
limpbrains
on 10 Jun 2020
Perhaps in future somebody will create standard to backup BIP39 to sss, but it is not here yet.
I would strongly advocate against that for reason I posted above.
prusnak
on 10 Jun 2020
Electrum itself doesn't support creating/restoring SLIP39 backups
It does support restoring SLIP39 backups but you need to have Trezor T (the majority of the process happens on the device).
mariodian
on 21 Oct 2020
It does support restoring SLIP39 backups but you need to have Trezor T (the majority of the process happens on the device).
This is going to change and there will be a pull request adding pure-software (with no device) SLIP39 recovery to Electrum soon.
prusnak
on 21 Oct 2020
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This is going to change and there will be a pull request adding pure-software (with no device) SLIP39 recovery to Electrum soon.