Tgstation: The future of Headcoders in /tg/station13

[RemieRichards]

Overly dramatic title yada yada.

| Maintainer | Cheridan | Someone Else (Say Who) | Democracy of Maintainers (No Headcoder) |
|-------------|------------------|--------------------------------|:------------------------------------------------:|
| @AnturK |
| @ChangelingRain | | optimumtact/oranges | :+1:
| @Cyberboss | | | :-1:
| @Jordie0608 |
| @lzimann | | lzimann/leo | :-1:
| @optimumtact |
| @Razharas |

Cheridan has proven time and time again he won't do anything with the position, and actively supports a frequently unwanted "contributor", should someone else take over? do we even need the position anymore?

In Cheridan's own words (from 2 years ago),

Jalleo> what happened in the end with the idea of getting new headcoders?
Cheridan> if the code team wants to get more somehow i'm behind them 100%
Cheridan> i don't want to be the one deciding things there though
Cheridan> like i don't think it's a good political system for the guy in charge to be deciding elections
Cheridan> know what i'm saying?

Maintainers, vote.

This isn't about what I want, it's about what the team want.

[praisenarsie]

Question, how would no headcoder work exactly or will the maintainers have a discussion on how it would work?

Also, what if someone was voted to be headcoder yet refuses the position (for some reason)? I assume a revote?

also small suggestion, maybe limit this "issue"/conversation to collaborators/maintainers and put this "issue" on #coderbus's topic

[RemieRichards]

@praisenarsie as the column is labelled, "A Democracy of Maintainers" (more votes, essentially, just off-the-cuff ones in the bus, I imagine)

[silicons]

cyberboss for headcoder

[RemieRichards]

@kevinz000 your vote is appreciated, but only maintainers can vote.

[Cyberboss]

I don't necessarily plan on it but I'm wondering, are self votes allowed?

On Sep 16, 2017 8:40 AM, "Remie Richards" [e-mail] wrote:

@kevinz000 https://github.com/kevinz000 your vote is appreciated, but
only maintainers can vote.

—
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/30804#issuecomment-329966089,
or mute the thread
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHywem5D75pD-kPyen5igyEQZnRzfwOjks5si8GngaJpZM4PZzRt
.

[Cyberboss]

Also, democracy of maintainers brings into question who gets admin on the
org

On Sep 16, 2017 9:27 AM, "Jordan Brown" [e-mail] wrote:

I don't plan on it but I'm wondering, are self votes allowed?

On Sep 16, 2017 8:40 AM, "Remie Richards" [e-mail]
wrote:

@kevinz000 https://github.com/kevinz000 your vote is appreciated, but
only maintainers can vote.

—
You are receiving this because you were mentioned.
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/30804#issuecomment-329966089,
or mute the thread
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHywem5D75pD-kPyen5igyEQZnRzfwOjks5si8GngaJpZM4PZzRt
.

[DoctoreMad]

Pass the popcorn

@Cyberboss We can give it to the metaclub leader

[RemieRichards]

@Cyberboss a voted individual, I suppose. or perhaps @MrStonedOne

[RemieRichards]

@DoctoreMad I know this might seem amusing but I'm genuinely trying to change things for the better here.

[Cyberboss]

Also, Raz is occasionally active, does he not get a say?

[lzimann]

remie cant comment with this locked so i'll unlock and maybe delete irrelevant things

[RemieRichards]

Thanks @lzimann

@Cyberboss
If he wishes to, he can.
However he's:
A. inactive
B. private on the maintainer team meaning I couldn't see his name anymore and forgot to put him down.

[Cyberboss]

PR owner cant comment on it

:thinking:

[RemieRichards]

Can't comment on it OR edit previous posts OR edit the Issue anymore.
Yes, it's incredibly dumb.

[praisenarsie]

just putting this here #11413

[DoctoreMad]

@RemieRichards No, it really isn't. If you were able to edit your previous posts people would just edit-argue after a mod locks the topic.
This isn't just in github, some forums work like that too since it always becomes a special moment when it happens.

[RemieRichards]

@DoctoreMad I mean the issue author only.
I'm talking about myself in that post, no-one else.

[imtakingabreakdontatme]

Cheridan has kept the project stable for (4?) years now. I don't know if anyone else here can do that, especially if they're expected to be more involved in the day to day

[RemieRichards]

He's kept it stable by doing nothing.
Which implies anyone can.

He's done literally nothing.

But I already knew how you were going to vote, shame you're not a maintainer so it doesn't count.

[imtakingabreakdontatme]

What is "doing something?"

He fires/hires maintainers, he bans people from the repo, he rules on our arguments if we can't solve it with a vote. Other than banning goof, what do you want a head coder to be doing past that?

[RemieRichards]

"Hires/fires maintainers"
False, he always asks the maintainers, so that falls on the maintainers as a vote (as it should be), all he does is "give the keys", a purely ceremonial gesture

"bans people from the repo"
When was the last time he did this?

"he rules on our arguments"
No he doesn't.

[pubby]

I don't really understand what's going on, but I do know it was Cheridan who banned goof from doing his token memes.

[RemieRichards]

No, that was MSO and oranges, and it also didn't even fucking work because he did it again.

[imtakingabreakdontatme]

Last time I know of was when some hippie guys were raiding the repo several months back

[RemieRichards]

Oh yeah, sure, dealing with external cancers but not internal ones? he's so amazing

[lzimann]

I vote on myself.

[Repukan]

Stop being petty

[RemieRichards]

@Repukan your vote is appreciated, but only maintainers can vote.

[Repukan]

I'm not voting, I said stop acting like a kid.

You think you can run a project with how mentally unhinged you are/act?

This whole thing is a tantrum

[ike709]

I know only maintainers have a vote, but players still have an opinion, and I will voice mine whether you like it or not. A head coder that _actually does things_ (Don't defend Cheridan, I've been watching this GitHub repo almost constantly for over four years) could mean big changes for TG.

I still appreciate Remie's hard work on NTstation; and she has generally been a good maintainer here on TG. She was also nice and helpful on IRC back when I still used that. I support her for head coder.

Cyberboss, during his relatively short time here, has made several major refactors that broke the game, but in the process improved the overall code. From a code quality and maintainability standpoint, I support him for head coder.

Although oranges does a good job as a maintainer overall, he has closed pull requests numerous times just because he personally dislikes them. Even if the code is good and the community greatly supports it, he will close it. I'll admit, there were a few that were jokes, but the majority were genuine PRs. He fails to give a reason for closing the PRs beyond "I'm a maintainer." While it is within his power to close pull requests, he fails to provide valid reasons for the PRs he dislikes. Doing so on PRs that meet code quality standards and community approval should _not_ be allowed, and this is something I expect an active head coder to prevent. I do not support oranges for head coder, but I do support any maintainer who acknowledges his abuse of power on PRs he dislikes. This wouldn't be the case if he actually provided valid reasons for his actions on these PRs.

I don't support lzimann purely because they voted for themself. Yes, I am serious.

I won't comment on every maintainer, because this post is long enough already, but these are my top picks for/against head coder.

[ChangelingRain]

I have no desire to run more things, so I'm going to fuck everything up and vote @optimumtact.
Or democracy, I guess, if you can select multiple columns.

[RemieRichards]

@Repukan your vote is appreciated, but only maintainers can vote.

[RemieRichards]

@ChangelingRain you can.

[Cyberboss]

As far as the democracy thing goes, I'm putting a :-1: for that.

My vote is still undecided

[Cyberboss]

As far as the voting goes, shouldn't we have IRV like the headmin elections (with both Cheridan and Democracy as an option)?

[praisenarsie]

yes i'm not a maintainer but i'm just saying that self-voting is _kinda_ dumb

[RemieRichards]

That would require @MrStonedOne or something.
Which if its wanted, sure.

[Armhulen]

does this vote have any backing

[RemieRichards]

@Armhulen cheridan's previous commentary of being "100%" behind what the team want (in the OP, if you wish to read, also linked in full by praiseratvar), if the team voted him out, he would probably hold his word, if he's even an ounce of a respectable human being.

[DoctoreMad]

@RemieRichards
You mean the two years old one
Did you double-check this

[RemieRichards]

@DoctoreMad Two years is a long time I admit yes, but Headcoder has always been a position where one steps down and passes it on.

Once it was finally removed from the clutches of whoever had it prior, it went to rockdtben (a very good headcoder actually), but he got a job and passed it on, unfortunately to cheridan.

If cheridan is voted out, and he refuses to leave, it just makes him look like another numbers or whatever, which i'm SURE will put him in a good light, totally.

[praisenarsie]

unfortunately

why unfortunately?

[Armhulen]

narsie she explained it in op

[Armhulen]

i also kind of agree with remie on this somewhat ish i don't really care what you coders work out just work something out okay

[Cyberboss]

We can setup a third party IRV using http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/ it would require someone getting an email address from each maintainer

[imtakingabreakdontatme]

In all seriousness though I'm not sure why you get to decide whether I have a vote or not, you might dislike me or my job title but I am still an org member and do a significant amount of work reviewing PRs like everyone else here

[RemieRichards]

Your job title is insignificant, you are not a maintainer, the headcoder should be someone with actual code standards.

[pubby]

You are not a maintainer either, Remie, and have barely contributed to this game at all in the past few months.

[RemieRichards]

Having written/helped write a lot of the code standards we use today, that's irrelevant, my contributions continue without my having to do them personally.

[Armhulen]

that's why she isn't a vote either

but give kor a vote cmon now

[RemieRichards]

and also see that, oh wait, I haven;'t voted? SHOCK HORROR it's almost as if I'm NOT being a hypocrite? wow!!

[RemieRichards]

and on that note @pubby when was the last time cheridan did?

[as334]

Based off of his github page, Cheridan's last action was merging a couple PRs in the first week of June and making an issue report.

[imtakingabreakdontatme]

I'm not intending to run for head coder, and the qualities you are seeking in a head coder have nothing to do with code standards, so I'm not sure how that's relevant.

My job title has merge access the same as the maintainers and pretending that dealing with the most dramatic PRs is insignificant is petty.

[RemieRichards]

based on @pubby ignoring my reviewing of PRs, he clearly only considers actual PRs authored by that person as contribution.

And what a surprise, cheridan's last PR was... a few months ago! Looks like pubby's being a bit biased here!

[Cyberboss]

Kor gets a vote imo. He's both a maintainer and design lead.

[Armhulen]

give kor a vote

[RemieRichards]

@KorPhaeron Wjohn has merge access, your point is irrelevant.
You haven't been explicitly blocked from voting because I dislike how you are these days, or your "job title" you simply weren't included on the same grounds as everyone else wasn't, you're not a maintainer.
You lack code standards, and as such would have poor ability to choose someone who does, and if you seriously think a headcoder shouldn't have good code ability then you're not really helping your point.

@Cyberboss he is not, he is "design lead" he was never been a maintainer.

[DoctoreMad]

Wait a minute, did MemieRichards just set up the rules of this vote herself?

[RemieRichards]

@DoctoreMad first of all, Herself, second of all, I set up the rules as logically as possible for what is an impromptu and unofficial vote.

[RemieRichards]

Also nice edit for "Memie", very clever, shame that isn't even pronounced at all like the word you're trying to turn it into, or that it even makes a difference.

[DoctoreMad]

This vote is sudden and improptu as fuck, really.
Cheridan leaving is not guaranteed for reasons other than a 2 year old IRC message.
The vote rules are set up by someone who doesn't have enough power to consider [gendered pronoun] fit to vote. On the pool they created. Because well that's how we roll.
Considering it was proper enough to get 3 votes, I suppose I should shut up?

[RemieRichards]

Are you arguing with yourself there or what?

[pubby]

and also see that, oh wait, I haven;'t voted?

Deciding who gets to vote is way more powerful than a single vote. Rejecting Kor and Cheridan is equivalent to two votes in your favor.

[Cyberboss]

@Cheridan has be the one deciding if kor, wj, remie, raz, or themself can vote, honestly. That's how the status quo stands.

[Militaires]

will this vote even change anything

[RemieRichards]

I can see that point of view, but cheridan rejected his own vote two years ago, or did you come here just to dramapost rather than read the op?

[RemieRichards]

@Cyberboss not a maintainer, not a maintainer, not a maintainer, maintainer away being a russian guardsman.

the distinction is clear.

[factoryman942]

I can feel the reddit posts of "tg on life support" already
👍

[Wyzack]

If this vote is entirely impromptu anyways cant Kor just declare who he wants to vote for and have it be considered just as valid as any other vote or not based on who is looking at the results?

[DoctoreMad]

@RemieRichards I will rewrite my post.
You didn't discuss the rules for the vote with other people(Cyberboss is a maintainer and thinks vote rules should be different, headmin Armhulen too), so this vote doesn't really have power. _Its more of a gentle suggestion_.
Does that make sense to you?

[RemieRichards]

@Wyzack
Well yes, of course.

@DoctoreMad yes it does, but considering i already said it was A. impromptu (as in, not discussed, sudden) and B. unofficial, I'm already well aware. I'm basing this on (admittedly a 2 year previous) version of cheridan who once claimed that they'd accept whatever the team decided, I'm merely the one who's poked the team to vote.

[Militaires]

don't accuse me of dramaposting while you started this remie.

second of all, why did you even need to publicize this?

[RemieRichards]

@Militaires I posted that to pubby, one of the posts above, before you posted, github updated late.

It's public because I've quit and no longer have any way to handle this privately.

[Militaires]

very well.

[MrStonedOne]

my vote is that we blacklist remie until she reaches the point of maturity where she doesn't try to start a coup over the fact that she doesn't like goofball

[RemieRichards]

Says the weedlmao? That's totally mature of you.

[RemieRichards]

Also it was obvious how you were going to side, for some reason you offer goof these millions of chances too, but considering you actually DO SHIT for the community I didn't include you.

[Militaires]

remie just dissed recreational drugs, someone get colonic up in here

[DoctoreMad]

@MrStonedOne I don't care what Remie said, I think what you just said is what is passing through the heads of more than a few people.

[Militaires]

goof went into hiding after shooting both joan and remie in the asshole, he's a wanted man and we will find him for this crime

[praisenarsie]

goof is in ntrhut

[Arzion5]

[Wyzack]

To be entirely honest after goof didnt get repobanned for the whole goatse thing i think we all assumed he was unbannable

[Firecage]

@MrStonedOne Well, goofball HAS had millions of chances, yet he still keeps fucking up. And it doesn't matter whether it is on IRC, Github, the server, etc., he always acts toxic as fuck. Holy fuck, he has like 480 closed PR's compared to 218 or so merged PR's. The dude either makes a bunch of meme PR's, joke PR's, or PR's which are just plain horribly coded. Holy fuck, many times he even refuses to listen to the most basic of feedback/criticism unless it is forced down his throat. Bloody hell, he even refuses to test his own shit many times, nor does he bother fixing his own features to often.

Heck, ONCE AGAIN he was even blatantly bribing people for votes during the last headmin election...like he has done every single headmin election he has taken part in.

So MSO, whether this is about goof or not. The fact that he is still around is not a good thing at all. Anyone else would have been given the pink slip long ago, and booted straight into a bucket. Yet somehow it appears that guy is unbannable and very, very rarely gets a slap on the wrist.

[ChangelingRain]

This drama isn't drama enough I'm changing my vote to @Iamgoofball

[RemieRichards]

I lol'd.

[DoctoreMad]

Oh yeah we should wait until CR is serious.
First she voted Orange after someone denounced Oranges and now he's switching to Goofball

[Militaires]

do you guys see why i support goof every time now

this is what he does

[RemieRichards]

She won't ever be serious about any of this, she's dealing with her own shit at the moment.

[RemieRichards]

@Militaires but if he was actually removed, none of this would happen, so if you truely only support him to silence drama (that he creates...) then that's a very weird reason.

[GunHog]

Clearly some people just want to watch the codebase burn.

[DoctoreMad]

What's with all those women and their awful opinions

[InsaneHyena]

No, none of this would happen if you stopped being hysterical.

[Qustinnus]

wasn't this about catpeople or something. i knew they'd ruin TG, but maybe not in this way.

[AuroranAI]

the slippery slope is here and someone's cut the brakes

[Militaires]

god fucking dammit this is so fucking funny

who needs tv when you have this

[Qustinnus]

@RemieRichards unblock Goof so he can discuss in this thread, as they are involved.

[Wilchenx]

@Qustinnus dumb

[RemieRichards]

@Qustinnus ? what?

[Wilchenx]

@RemieRichards he's dumb excuse him

[AuroranAI]

the s m a r t e s t boy

[Qustinnus]

I ment goof, I have autism pls excuse

[RemieRichards]

@Qustinnus I waited to comment after you corrected yourself, I don't know what you're talking about?
Is he posting here or something? because I've had him blocked for a lot longer than this shit, thought it only hid comments like other things.

[Qustinnus]

He can't post on your issues if he's blocked.

[DoctoreMad]

Okay first things first, who linked all those TG derivatives here? This was better when people were pretending to be serious, then comes reddit-lite to try to be ironic.

As for @RemieRichards ,you should unblock goof not because of justice or anything but because he will shit the bed.

@Qustinnus Remie may or may not have a grudge because of goof messing with catgirls, but that's really unrelated.

[dannno]

i miss HG :[

[RemieRichards]

@Qustinnus Hilarious.
I'm not sure how to act on that one.

His opinion is already scrawled everywhere he can put it (forums, irc, reddit, in game I imagine) so I'm not sure what more allowing him to post here would do.

[Wilchenx]

@DoctoreMad who are you again?

[DoctoreMad]

@The-clown-known-as-Pepe Not important really, what is important is what I'm going to do.

[Wilchenx]

@DoctoreMad what are you going to do?

[Qustinnus]

@hornygranny help us

[dannno]

HG FOR HEADGODER

[lzimann]

i was going to clean this up but github takes forever so i'll just keep this locked

[DoctoreMad]

Can the guys that "Can't vote" please vote? The only thing that will happen is that RemieRichards won't include you in the issue OP, she can't actually decide what votes will be accepted.

[RemieRichards]

If they really wanted to it's surprising they already haven't.

[Repukan]

Add me to the screenshot

[optimumtact]

Cheridan has my full support, and as far as I'm concerned you're making this issue to cause drama, so you can all stop posting, except for maintainers who should have known better than to let this happen in public like this

Any conversation about a replacement headcoder does not happen here, it happens between maintainers, and then we can go public when we have a consensus about action that needs to be taken (if any)

which of course it doesn't

Yes I agree goof needs to be put on a shorter leash, including and up to gitbans for periods of time if he continues to misbehave (That goatse incident sould have been a ban for a while, clearly we've grown a little to used to his misbehaviour and allowed it to normalise.)

Claiming you need to replace cheridan because they do nothing is petty and driven by your recent ousting from irc for calling Cheridan a cocksucker out of the blue because you were mad at goof, which was totally uncalled for. Nobody has to take abuse just because of their position, had you lead with "hey cheridan we need to talk about the goof situation, lets catch up via pm's you probably would have got a lot further"

If you wanted goof dealt with, why didn't you start a discussion with the right people about getting him put on a short leash? Lord knows I've started that discussion now

we always have been, despite our differences and despite the arguments we get into.

[optimumtact]

Basically none of the people commenting here have any idea of the extent of the work Cheridan does, ceremonial or otherwise, Especially people like @ike709 who should stay on their own side of the fence because they are obviously unfamiliar with what the role entails.

A headcoder does not mandate change, and they should not do so, that is the role of the design lead @KorPhaeron who does stellar work despite getting yelled at from every side for every single decision

who by the way is a full maintainer and absolutely deserving of a vote if the poll was even legitimate

Their job is to keep the peace between maintainers and occasionally and very rarely, resolve the maintainers deadlocks when they can't do it themselves and try to build consensus between people and require people to step back when they get heated (we've all done it)

Due to the poor setup of github permissions they also have some extra reponsibilities of banning people and setting up webhooks etc.

They are also not supposed to make big refactors, that responsibility lies with EVERYONE, the headcoder can ask people to do things but at the end of the day they're not supposed to be a SuperCoder and very little of their actual supposed work will require any coding knowledge at all.

The lightest touch is required and Cheridan has been doing that for a very long time and far better than anyone else here could even approach because we're all far too involved.

By the way, they did ban goof's token memes, it had nothing to do with Me or MSO, although we will be investigating introducing that rule as a permanent disqualification for "bribes of a substantial real nature for votes"

[optimumtact]

I I have spoken with Remie and amended my comment about them not being in IRC as they have been I just did not interact or notice.