Scoop: The Windows official package manger winget-cli has released, what should we do?

[wenmin92]

Windows Package Manager Preview | Windows Command Line

[linsui]

We have already talked with a few of the well-known package manager teams. Chocolatey has a vibrant community with a massive collection of applications, and a rich history supporting both open source and enterprise customers. Scoop provides a convenient way to allow software to be installed without the UAC popups. Ninite keeps an eye on updates for all the apps it installed. There are many others like AppGet, Npackd and the PowerShell based OneGet package manager-manager.

I'm curious about what they talked. :joy:

Scoop is more portable and silent. Before there is a portable source for winget, Scoop is the best choice for me.

[zjgcjy]

I like the principle of scoop, that is portable and silent, as linsui mentioned above.

[NatoBoram]

Personally, I'm not after the "portability" of Scoop, as I'll never move it around from a computer to another. But I do love the self-containment aspect it brings.

Right now, WinGet is struggling with Nightly support that Scoop had since https://github.com/lukesampson/scoop/issues/181.

I might not end up using WinGet, but I decided to contribute because it's easier since they have an automated tool to help. I think it'd be extra awesome if Scoop could install winget-cli.

One thing I noticed after trying WinGet is that... it's shit. It's just an installer-executor, and that's absolutely not what Windows needs. More on this : https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/issues/223

[gerardog]

We should add a Scoop manifest to WinGet Repo. So people can easily migrate to Scoop once they discover it's already years ahead.

[NatoBoram]

https://github.com/microsoft/winget-pkgs/pull/825

[Naomi010Sentzke]

It does support appx and msix that Scoop does not. Eventually it will also let you install from the Store itself. I feel like both Scoop and Winget can co-exist.

[Witchilich]

@Naomi010Sentzke That is if they implement everything in their roadmap by v1
https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/blob/master/doc/windows-package-manager-v1-roadmap.md#v10-scenarios
There are many things Scoop does, that winget can never do. But if we consider UWP apps and Windows Store, the reverse can also be true(or stuffs like Visual Studio Community) in future. If it matures I may use both.

[mxrss2]

I dont think there is anything to really do right now, just a wait and see approach. Someone brought up isnt this what OneGet was supposed to be?

I am very confused, why are we even looking at installing apps and not looking at offering abilities for win containers to use some kind of isolated storage. It appears most apps are going online to offer the broadest compat level, but apps that still require access to a machine (for dependencies or for apps, or for vendors that refuse to modernize or cant).

But here we are 20 years after package managers were considered cutting edge and the unwashed MS masses are parroting this is the "killer feature" for windows. I really think that this is bound for vapor ware. It might have integration, but like someone said this is just a solution in search of a problem. Maybe after 3 years and 5 versions it will be something that has to be considered what does the scoop community do, but its way to early to determine if this is some kind of Me Too project.

@lukesampson made a good package manager that embraces the "Do One Thing and Do it well philosophy".

[lukesampson]

Great points @mxrss2, @gerardog , @NatoBoram, @linsui and @Restia666Ashdoll.

This is mostly just speculation and I'm far from an attentive observer. Just throwing my 2 cents in.

Microsoft lately (Nadella era? I don't know) seems be going for buzz, trying to generate excitement and optimism about their platforms. But they don't seem to have any follow through. Products don't seem to go anywhere, there doesn't seem to be as much commitment to making things that are best in class any more. They throw things out to "the community" and hope that open source developers will finish their work for them. There are exceptions of course and a lot of people in MS that are pushing really hard. I would expect these are some of the smartest people in tech, but their management and corporate culture, and parasitic alignment with open source philosophy seem to be screwing them up. Programmers are not being given the support they need to develop projects to maturity and excellence, they are only incentivised to develop one flashy release candidate and make a bit of a splash at Build conferences. If you look at Demetrius Nelon's Linked in profile, he's been at MS 2 years and his primary achievement there (according to him) is "Delivering the Windows Package Manager Preview in time for //BUILD 2020". This isn't a personal attack on Mr Nelon, but I'm just noticing that maybe there is something going on here.

I think this is quite likely what will happen with WinGet. They won't get anywhere near the traction of Scoop or Chocolatey and the people working on it internally will get reassigned to the next sounds-good product. I think this would be a shame. But I also think it means that Scoop is just as necessary and useful as before.

I don't know if these rambling thoughts are helpful in any way, but I felt like I might be forgiven for indulging in some encouragement since I do very little around here these days. Maybe I'm totally off with this prediction. But Scoop is still the best in class in terms of functionality and aesthetic. We have the best people working on it, and the most buy-in from smart developers who care about how these things work. I'm very grateful to everyone who has contributed and made Scoop what it is today. I hope everyone can see that it's far from over for Scoop.

[Witchilich]

I just view winget as something different. Here is a manifest for notepads I made. After lots of modifications (and more by RandomLabs) I decided to go for the store version
https://github.com/TheRandomLabs/scoop-nonportable/blob/master/bucket/notepads-np.json
winget has "Installing from Store" on the top of their roadmap and already supports msix/appx.
Then there are issues like this
https://github.com/ScoopInstaller/Main/issues/924
I feel like PowerShell and Windows Terminal should not be used from Scoop if you use them primarily. Firefox does not retain data after updates. There is no Visual Studio Community Edition or Adobe Reader(unfortunately as much as I love sumatrapdf, this has its uses) manifest etc. I love Scoop, but its not the solution to everything. Scoop is more friendly towards command line and portable apps hence the reliance on scripts, while winget is more geared towards supporting multiple installers instead hence the use of data in yaml format. A lot of the stuffs in Scoop can never be possible in winget like switching between multiple Python versions.

Rather than hope that it fails I would wait for v1. Ultimately Windows Terminal turned out to be great. I would be using them together when it matures. They are both very different in their approach. Winget plans to integrate with "Add or Remove Programs" using System App ID for uninstallation.

Most of my stuffs would still be from Scoop.

PS : As someone migrated from Chocolatey, I have zero respect for that product. Outdated apps, because updates depends on the maintainers whims and repeated checksum failures. winget using a github repository is already a plus.

[sinloss]

We should add a Scoop manifest to WinGet Repo. So people can easily migrate to Scoop once they discover it's already years ahead.

Just like people are saying that the only use of the Microsoft Edge (I mean the old version, the new chromium one is awesome!) is to download Chrome. The WinGet would play the same role well.

[mxrss2]

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/28/21272964/microsoft-winget-windows-package-manager-appget-copied

Looks like its version 2 of EEE

[lukesampson]

@mxrss2 except this time round it's even easier for Microsoft because we open source everything now?

[Naomi010Sentzke]

@mxrss2 Isnt AppGet written in C#, and winget in C++ ?

[Witchilich]

@Naomi010Sentzke Read his blog, not the verge article. He didnt say that Microsoft copied his code, but his framework and his ideas
https://medium.com/@keivan/the-day-appget-died-e9a5c96c8b22
Here is the appget firefox manifest

And the winget one

Its kind of like someone used Scoop for a month and made a package manager based on what he learned. winget is definitely inspired by appget, they didnt copy any code though.
Isnt that right @kayone ?

[Airkro]

Maybe winget can solve this problem: https://github.com/lukesampson/scoop/issues/3691

I prefer using the package manager install apps with self-updaters (chrome, vscode, etc.) once, silently, when I buy a new computer. Then using their self-updater without breaking their manifests (scoop can't do that for now).

And use scoop for apps who can't self-update.

[mxrss2]

@Restia666Ashdoll they gave him a nod for the attribution.