Rawtherapee: Local adjustments are applied after Film Simulation, ignoring B&W effects

[RaimoL]

Local controls used e.g. to put blue to eyes. BW jpg is ok with Black-and-White tool under Color tab but in jpg from BW-FilmSimulation there is colors.

Attachments at WeTransfer https://we.tl/t-dgCZ0AyuAA

Camera Fujifilm XF10, RAF

My HP Laptop: Win 10 Enterprise vers 1809 OS build 17763.1039

installed: RawTherapee_newlocallab_5.8-1888-gdd070dbd3_20200429.exe

Regards Raimo

[Desmis]

@RaimoL
Very difficult to do that...
Local adjustments is not made for that

But, we can work around the problem.
Put you in "Expert" mode (preferences)
Load this pp3 (rename "txt" in pp3

To simplify, I only apply "Film simulation"

Then I use in "expert"

Color and light, Merge file, Background, Difference, with settings in pp3

Then excluding spot for the center of the eye

Rename this file in pp3
RAIM8186.RAF 5b Kodak TRI X 400.jpg.out2.txt

Hope that help !

jacques

[RaimoL]

Dear Jacques
You say "Local adjustments is not made for that" ??
I have been using Nik U-point tech a lot.
I'll explain my problem (sorry but perhaps this is not the correct forum):

If I had a photo like this after white balance correction.

And I'll want to add some red to the lipses (as local adjustments (it is me and in the real world I don't want red on my lips) like this:

Then the result is ok for me with a color film simulated:

But if I change my mind and want to have a B&W version of that with a simulated B&W film.
Now there is the problem: the B&W film still has red lips - that I did not want or expect:

[Thanatomanic]

Edit 2: Scratch my entire comment, I was wrong about what was going on. Sorry.

[Desmis]

@RaimoL

Excuse my bad english

of course for the example you show, it's work.... and it's obvious..., because I am the designer of the algorithms (not the GUI)

But in the case of eyes, it's very difficult.... and tools are not exactly disagned for that. Hence what I propose in "expert" mode with "merge file", etc.

What you explain is due to te pipeline in Rawtherapee, "Local adjustments" is after "Filmsimulation " in the process

But I think it is not the good place to discuss...of that. Globaly it is not an "issue", but "how to" ? Of course we can put that in "issue", but clearly in RT there is not a specifi space for leraning !

I recognize that this is missing, especially for Local adjustments, but I am not at all a specialist to explain with with pedagogy, and also video are for me chinese :)

Jacques

[Thanatomanic]

@RaimoL @Desmis After thinking more than my original two seconds on this, I think the real issue is: where should "Film simulation" be placed in the pipeline?

Since it is a (final) look that you choose for your image, my feeling is it should come as late as possible. Probably after color toning and local adjustments. Currently, that is not the case.

[Desmis]

@Thanatomanic
Probably, in this case, but there may be other cases where we will do the opposite

If i take an example of "denoise"....
ten years ago, "we" says... at the end of the process
4 years ago, "we" says ... at the begining of the process

For this case, you have a tool in "wavelet levels" allowing to denoise after
and also denoise after in"local" with local adjustements

But, t is complex, the ideal would be to be able to put each procedure where desired. Practically impossible with the current RT organization.
Reminder, in 2017, 2018 it was said that one of the essential tasks for RT was to review and simplify the pipelines. it seems to be forgotten or postponed

Jacques

[RaimoL]

I found https://rawpedia.rawtherapee.com/Toolchain_Pipeline My quick opinion is that Film Simulation should be before RGB processing because it is like the first job for a real film user: select the film.

[Desmis]

@RaimoL @Thanatomanic
Probably, but that does not solved the problem
All the processes that change hue after "film simulation" will cause persistent colors and not only "local adjustments". This is why the title of the issue should be changed again

On the other hand, and excuse my bad English - if everyone spoke French it would be fine :), I thought what you wanted was to color part of an image (here the eyes) from a black and white image.
And that's why I say that it's very difficult, and that Local Adjustments is not made exactly for that (you cannot use - or bad - deltaE). Hence my proposal to use "merge file" which works very well and allows to simulate certain Photoshop functions

jacques

[Desmis]

I can easily add a checkbox in "settings" (Local adjustments) .
if you check this chekbox all "colors" will be en BW

But that solve only "Local adjustments"

Easy to do ...

OK or no ?

jacques

[Thanatomanic]

The real solution to this problem (imo) would be, either:
1) To work with masks: you can select where to apply the Film simulation (entire image, except selected parts). This would mean a big change for RT.
2) Allow a more flexible pipeline where you can add and reorder modules wherever you want. This would mean a _huge_ change for RT.

So in both cases, I don't think there is anything we can do on the short term, except a work-around like @Desmis suggests. I'm not a particular fan of that though, because this would introduce a feature for one very particular use-case. That may give backwards compatibility issues down the line.

@RaimoL you may want to take a look at @agriggio 's work on ART https://bitbucket.org/agriggio/art/wiki/Home I believe he has implemented the tools you need to do the thing you want. Also, in darktable you can use masks on (nearly) all tools, which could also allow you to do what you want to achieve here.

[Desmis]

@Thanatomanic
With "Local adjustments" you can use mask on all tools...

Color and Light, exposure, vibrance, local contrast, wavelet, retinex, denoise, CBDL, etc.... but not for film simulation, Ciecam,...

I will add this checbox, this allows some improvments in other cases. No problem of compatibility

Will come soon :)

jacques

[Desmis]

@Thanatomanic @RaimoL

Change done, you have a checkbutton in settings "All chnages forced in black and white"
Of course, it is only change, and not the image itself :)

Mask can concern quasi all process - in Local adjustments - an can be applied to the entire image

Jacques