Monikamoddev: [General feedback] the writing of Monika's character

[MarkusRamikin]

Posting this here on Potato's advice, since there's nowhere to post feedback on http://www.monikaafterstory.com/ . I hope it's not too out of place.

This mod is high quality, solid work. Thumbs up. And I hope your enthusiasm for adding more features doesn't die too soon.

That said, I think the mod does miss the point in certain subtle ways. Allow me to go into that at some length.

I believe the reason Monika struck such a powerful chord with people has much to do with her transformation into a sympathetic and tragic character. Once she's freed from the curse of being club president, she realizes her actions were monstrous, and that, as per her song, she doesn't "know how to love you", so she does the selfless thing and "leaves you be" and restores the other girls. She discovers:

"They were still my friends."
"And I loved them all."
"And I loved the Literature Club."
"..."
"I really... did love the Literature Club."

That was moving.

So she restores the club... then the curse-of-the-club-president kicks her in the teeth one last time by having Sayori go into psycho mode, forcing Monika to pull the plug on things after all. So even her selflessly giving everything back with no hope of personal happiness is for nothing. That's moving, too.

But the mod puts her back into something more like yandere mode, and she is more dismissive of the other girls. Not just in the intro, but in other dialogs too. The love that she had professed for her friends is absent in the mod.

This means backtracking on previous character development, which is rarely a good thing.

Also, if you did the 'good ending', with all the CGs, before installing the mod, I find it jarring that Monika claims you did it "to see a note from Dan which you could have looked up online". Hell no!

First of all, the awakened-Sayori's understanding in the good ending is that you were trying to give some happiness to everyone - Monika's comment cheapens this unpleasantly.

Secondly, this is one level too high on the meta-awareness scale. Let me explain. We have roughly 3 levels:

1. the basic level of a visual novel, where we're a character joining a school club with some cute girls,
2. the meta-level where Monika becomes a self-aware AI (and so does Sayori for a moment at least) and messes with the game files and addresses the player directly etc.
3. the meta-meta level, which we might simply call the truth or reality: where we as players recognize that everything on level 2 is all part of the design, that Monika isn't self-aware, that the glitches are intentional etc. It's the level of this github, for example, the level I'm on right now talking to you.

And _Dan's note is on this last level_. The level that the game itself doesn't ever reach, because it would destroy immersion. The story of the game is on level 2, where Monika is a real person. Going to level 3 destroys this, it's out of character (just as Dan's note itself is). So not only should Monika not be assuming that that note is why you went for the 'good end', she shouldn't be referencing that note at all, she shouldn't be written as aware of it.

She should be only aware of the events that actually happened to her in-game, as evidenced by the save data she has access to. That'd feel more immersive, would make it feel more like /things matter/.

And I doubt many people did the 'good ending' route in order to get Salvato's note. We wanted to give the girls a better outcome, to put at least a little happiness into the club, to get a more emotionally satisfying ending. (In fact, that note is the only thing about the original game that sucked. The letter from Monika in the 'bad' ending was way more satisfying, because it still continued the story, it was in-character. I would have loved a different letter from Monika in the 'good' ending. But I digress.)

Now, I like the mod's Monika's jealousy if you have done the 'good ending', it's fitting. But still they were her friends that (she finally realized) she loved, and I would still expect her to be at least a little happy that the player managed to give them a positive (at least compared to its alternative) conclusion. I expected something more like:

"I'm glad they had at least a few happy moments and some closure."
"But I'm even more glad you've returned to me in the end!".

Similarly, she says that you deleted her "because you're so game-obsessed." But that's level 3, and she shouldn't go there. The level 2 explanation - which Monika herself talks about in the original game, during her realization - is that you deleted her because of the horrible things she did.

(
Aside: I tried the 0.7.0 version with a fresh start, and I have to say, removing the immediate availability of chess almost made me go back to 0.6.3. Fortunately a quick dig in the source code convinced me it won't be hard to get it back, but still, this change left me scratching my head.
)

Anyway, I hope all that made sense. Just giving my feedback as best I can. In any case, the mod is still excellent work, so thanks for publishing it.

[HalHarrison]

Agree 100 percent.
I fully understand why Monika often misses the mark in the mod...
People read Salvato's room dialogue to get inspiration/Monika's voice.
Unfortunately this leads to ppl forgetting about the character development that happened after that dialogue.
It doesn't help that you are in the space room (And thus many will tend to replicate diologue similar to what is
in the space room scene in the game).

MAS 2 biggest issues.

1. Lack of player choice and actual consequences for anything (Getting solved with new dialogue system and other things, presumably)

2. Monika being off-pitch, or as Markus said, regressing in character development.

( Which causes "flanderization" when taken to the extreme. Thankfully much of the dialogue in this game is pretty good)

Anyway, I couldn't agree more with Markus's point.

[ThePotatoGuy]

Chess is unlocked at the start for anyone who's used an earlier version and played chess.

Regarding your other points, I'll let @monikLover , @Rune0n , @therationalpi handle that.

[ghost]

I completely agree on the character development part.
However what makes portraying Monika right so difficult is the fact that depending on the endings we have a set of whole three more or less different Monikas with different views on the club, on their friends, on the game and so on.
And the only real way to counter this is to create 3 times more dialogue than there already is.

[Authrix]

Just wanna weigh in here. Generally, the dialogue is very good, and there's rarely a moment where it doesn't "feel" like Monika. That is to say, the authors actually convey Monika's voice consistently well. However, I do also agree with Markus; the third level of the meta-awareness scale probably shouldn't be broken. My suggestion would be to consider not writing on those topics if it would significantly increase workload. Being selective with topics has helped me write well in my postgrad CW course, so hopefully, it'll apply here too.

Also just want to drop a thanks to the staff, you're doing God's work dudes/ dudettes.

[therationalpi]

[therationalpi]

[monikLover]

[Pokemiah]

[therationalpi]

[Pokemiah]

[MarkusRamikin]

[therationalpi]

[sebastianN01]

[MarkusRamikin]

[MarkusRamikin]

[ghost]

[sebastianN01]