Minetest_game: Reconsider removal of base/ex/unicolor groups from dye mod

[Wuzzy2]

WTF? Why did you remove the dye color groups? Now it's just color_*. OMG, I can't even …

A lot of mods and games used this unicolor and excolor scheme. More than you think. It's a well-defined set of many colors, also written down in the README file. It worked very well as LOTS of mods and games have used theses groups. This is great because having a STANDARD set of color group means it works the same everywhere. unicolor and excolor are very powerful and very important and they have worked for YEARS. ANY decent mod dealing with colors uses these groups. I have yet to find a game or mod that deliberately ignored this standard. Except Minetest Game right now …
The color groups are not random, they are even cited in the Dev Wiki as a group set with well-defined meanings:
https://dev.minetest.net/Groups/Shared_groups

It's safe to say excolor and unicolor is a de-facto standard. Now thanks to this absolutely brain-dead “simplification”, Minetest Game is now the first game diverting from this standard. Breaking all the things in the name of “simplification” is a dangerous and stupid route, and should be avoided.

For instance, dye color groups in MineClone 2 are (I mean: WERE) compatible, although some of the actual dyes differ. This is very important for crafting. Now this compability is broken for no apparent reason. Now to “fix” this, all mods and games must be changed in order to please MTG. Your assumption that it only affects 2 mods is wrong. It is simply wishful thinking to belive that all mods and games will now follow Minetest Game's path. That won't happen.

The unicolor, excolor groups were basically a standard of defining colors which everyone followed. Now if Minetest Game starts deliberately diverting from this standard, it will dilute the standard and make it useless.

Furthermore, you failed to reach out to modders and game makers for such a serious change. You completely underestimated the impact of this. You know, VanessaE ain't the only modder. ;-)

Also, you completely failed to properly define the meaning of the new color groups, so they cannot be used as any standard whatsoever. And you completely failed to address it in game_api.txt. Apparently you didn't even read game_api.txt as it still mentions excolor and unicolor.

Please revert https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/2186 and https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/2142 and what else has been done to cripple, err, I mean “simplify” the color system.

[SmallJoker]

This kind of report would be helpful to have before the PRs are merged.

[Ezhh]

The color groups are not random, they are even cited in the Dev Wiki

Info here isn't official or maintained specifically by the devs. (game_api.txt, on the other hand, should have been updated.)

Furthermore, you failed to reach out to modders and game makers

PR open for well over a month. How much longer should it have waited? Github, whether you like it or not, is where PRs are made and discussed, so any failure is also on the part of modders and game makers who don't check here. It's your choice not to check of course, but it means you have to accept that sometimes a change might break something for you, and you'll have to open an issue after to resolve it. It's not as if dyes can't be adjusted before the next release, so there's really no need for insults or dramatics.

It would help if your provide examples of mods this breaks and so on so this can be assessed properly.

[tenplus1]

Out of every mod I checked only two used unicolor_ groups in which one was patched and the other isn't necessary to work. If you have found more please let me know.

[Wuzzy2]

Just because nobody spoke up doesn't mean there's any breakage. Just hoping that eventually a modder will complain while not doing any research on your own?

I have only noticed this because I randomly looked into the issue list again.

From a 10-second grep in my folder I discovered that the following mods use unicolor:

• QuestTest
• mobs_mc
• paint_roller
• colorcubes
• bakedclay

For games, it really, REALLY gets ugly:

• Aftermath
• BFD
• Minetest Hades
• Hades Revisited
• Lord of the Test
• MineClone 2
• MineClone
• Wasteland
• Wasteland TNG
• Voxiworld
• Voxelgarden
• VoxBox
• Technic
• Skytest
• Realtest
• Outback
• Minetest Preindustrial
• Minesim
• Hungry Games
• Hungry Games Plus
• Grieftest
• Farlands
• Eden2
• Cobalt
• Carbone NG

These lists are possibliy not complete since I haven't downloaded every mod or game. It's safe to assume that any MTG-based game ever will now be incompatible to MTG colors groups.
Well done (not)!

The simplification was a bad idea, it did not add anything to the game and should simply be related. The original bug you attempted to fix with this should be fixed properly, without breaking stuff.

[Wuzzy2]

The simplification was a bad idea, it did not add anything to the game and should simply be related.

Oops, I mean “reverted”.

[tenplus1]

Extensive list, you can remove bakedclay though cause I know that I dont use unicolor at all there...

I still say that anything that uses the base 15 colours should use the dye,colour_* grouping and anything more should look into supporting unifieddyes.

[Ezhh]

Since bakedclay belongs to and is maintained by @tenplus1, and doesn't use these groups, which bakedclay are you talking about?

Are the MTG-based games using the groups for anything, apart from having them specified in the copied version of the dye mod?

Other games on your list (for example, BFD) are not maintained, so quite likely to break for many other reasons.

Just hoping that eventually a modder will complain while not doing any research on your own?

Silly wuzzy. It's obvious we did look into this. I also spent some time slamming the color groups through searches in my browser. Really, not many results outside of the dye mod itself.

[paramat]

I'll update game_api.txt.

The PRs had been open a long time, the issue that discussed removing these groups open for much longer. Also we decided a little mod breakage is worth it to reduce the issues and bugs caused, so i made a news forum post to warn. MTG 5.0.0 is a good time to make such a breakage.
Even the very experienced modder VanessaE recommended removing those groups.

So i disagree with a revert even if there is a little disruption.

Are the MTG-based games using the groups for anything, apart from having them specified in the copied version of the dye mod?

Good point, a word search doesn't prove anything.

[Wuzzy2]

What's the point of this change if nothing of value is added? It's just a different set of names and has absolutely zero benefit. There has to be a stronger justification to break things. “It looks better” is not one. There's nothing wrong with the old groups.

Well, even with the dye mod alone, it's still breakage. The simple reason is: group-based crafting recipes. Those are (mostly) independent of a particular game or mod. All unicolor recipes are now worthless as well. My point is: These groups have worked just fine for years. This is the most pointless breakage ever.

Also, did I say that this breakage is 100% pointless and totally avoidable? The few minor bugs which this might have fixed are fixable in a non-disruptive manner.

The reason why I'm so angry is because of a singe game, you are forcing the entire Minetest community to adapt to this change for absolutely no good reason.
I will tell you what will happen if this change stays: A few modders will update, a few other modders won't (for various reasons).
At the end, we will end up with two incompatible sets of color groups, thus sabotaging any attempt to standardize colors even more.

Which leads to “group proliferation”. I.e. there are lots of different group names which are all slightl different, but actually mean the same thing. I know that groups are ultimately a mod/game thing, but we should at least try to keep things consistent.

Even the very experienced modder VanessaE recommended removing those groups.

I can not find any evidence to support this claim. And VanessaE isn't the only experienced modder around here …

[paramat]

See https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1940#issuecomment-359246388
Also please read that whole thread, that somewhat explains why we did this.
Also related https://github.com/minetest-mods/technic/issues/370
The news forum post has no replies yet unfortunately.

Input from more modders on this would be appreciated. The PR was open for a month with no objections, now it's been merged it will likely come to the attention of more modders so hopefully we'll get more feedback. We're in dev and plenty of time to re-assess if necessary.

[paramat]

Hmm the forum post still has no replies and 227 views, i actually expected more objection than this :)

It seems good to me that the colour groups are not a set of 'base' plus 'extended' (which seems to be an approach dictated from outside of MT? I can't see any sense behind it), but match the wool colours instead. It will cause a little disruption, let's call it a new start and 5.0.0 is the best time to do this.

The objections in the first post all seem to be about the current standard that is argued prevents a change of the standard, there is no argument that the current standard is good or best (it clearly isn't as it causes issues). A standard can be changed and it seems to me the long-term benefits will outweigh some mod breakage.

Mineclone2 is a self-contained game so is irrelevant.

[Wuzzy2]

unicolor is good because it is a relatively simple scheme with more than enough colors to use. Plus, it is very well established across mod AND game boundaries. I don't think you understand how powerful this actually is.

I really don't see the point of the new color scheme. It's not even well-defined, does not even offer more color options. It's basically just a rename that causes breakage for no reason. The colors the new color groups define are just the same. So basically you didn't even change anything, you just want to break things.

"Matching wool colors" is a pretty lame reason, since unicolor can model all wool colors just fine anyway.

Mineclone2 is a self-contained game so is irrelevant.

No, it is NOT irrelevant. There is very well an use case for mods that work in multiple subgames, so having a standard that is established community-wide is very valuable and powerful.

If you think there is anything wrong with current groups, you should have discussed it BEFORE doing such extreme changes.

Hmm the forum post still has no replies and 227 views, i actually expected more objection than this :)

That's not a valid argument.

[rubenwardy]

No, it is NOT irrelevant. There is very well an use case for mods that work in multiple subgames, so having a standard that is established community-wide is very valuable and powerful.

I agree with this. Inter-game operability is important and some similarities makes porting much easier. Groups are a massive tool in this

That being said - what mods actually rely on this, and was this documented anywhere? What API issues are caused by the old way?

I try to ignore dyes and wool because I find it boring and tedious

[Ezhh]

... so having a standard that is established community-wide is very valuable and powerful.

No one disputed this. It's why I asked for examples of mods that are broken by this so we can do a real assessment of whether there are enough of them to make this worth reverting or adjusting. But when your list includes a mod that doesn't use the groups, it makes the list questionable at best.

I support closing this unless we get some meaningful real examples to review.

[Wuzzy2]

If you are looking for examples just scroll up a few posts … -_-

[Ezhh]

To repeat myself:

But when your list includes a mod that doesn't use the groups, it makes the list questionable at best.

[Wuzzy2]

You are speaking in mysterious words.

[Ezhh]

Oh, I guess you were too busy raging to actually read the replies you were given by a dev who actually wanted to take you seriously.

Let's quote myself again.

Since bakedclay belongs to and is maintained by @tenplus1, and doesn't use these groups, which bakedclay are you talking about?

That's been sitting unanswered for 11 days, so you certainly had time to explain its inclusion in your list. Until its inclusion in your list is explained, your list remains questionable.

Also maybe help us to help you. The old system with so many groups was a mess. Despite your thoughts otherwise, cleaning up mess can be a very good thing. If that cleanup has actually broken something, drop the insults and give a simple explanation, then maybe we can find something that suits everyone.

[Wuzzy2]

OK, bakedclay is indeed no longer valid, I had an old version sitting around on my computer. Forget bakedclay then.

Anyway, as if that invalidates the rest of the list …

Note it is not possible for me to edit comments.

[Wuzzy2]

Also, how do you think that all mods and subgames ever made will update? Certainly a huge portion of MTG-derived games are now automatically incompatible, it's unlikely every single of them will just mindlessly follow MTG.
This is not about some possible breakage, this is about breakage you already caused. The breakage is that this just litters the MT modding sphere with more incompatible color grouping schemes. This sucks.
Thanks to MTG's deviation from the standard, the “mess” (as you call it) just becomes worse.
This is not helping anything.

You did not even try to preserve existing groups at all. Not even the slightest attempt of compability. You could, you know, at least try to use the unicolor group. But nooo, you just want to break things.
Oh, and you also threw the bright and dark options in unicolor under the bus. Those were useful!. So basically the new system is not simplified, it has been dumbed-down.

If you would only have wanted to nuke basecolor and excolor, I would have almost understood. But you want to destroy everything, unilaterally.

IMO the new system has just been hastily put together without putting much thought into it. Nor has the new scheme seen any serious discussion.

I don't like that attitude.

Do you really believe the entire MT community just follows whatever MTG dictates? It doesn't work that way. MTG is not the leader.

AAANYWAY. If the goal really is to nuke everything, it definitely should have seen more community involvement. It's better if everyone can agree on a simple color group standard than if every game and every mod just adds their own incompatible groups just because they feel like it. Imagine every modder would have the same attitude as you and ignore all other groups that exist. That would be utter chaos.

I recommend to revert the problematic commits, then start over, but this time, do it right.

[paramat]

No, it is NOT irrelevant.

Sorry for that.

it is very well established across mod AND game boundaries

Again, a standard can be changed and that's what we're doing. Something being the way it is doesn't exclude change.

you just want to break things.

Obviously ;)

you should have discussed it BEFORE doing such extreme changes.

Again, we did, we have no obligation to carry out development discussions in the forum, people just have to pay attention and object (which you didn't). The PRs were open a month and several people researched the impact.

Hmm the forum post still has no replies and 227 views, i actually expected more objection than this :)

That's not a valid argument.

Well it is, 2 weeks on no-one else has objected or complained, how much more consultation do you need? Many of your arguments are invalid too.

If you are looking for examples just scroll up a few posts

As for your list, see above: "Are the MTG-based games using the groups for anything, apart from having them specified in the copied version of the dye mod?" to which you didn't reply.
5 mods, many of which the authors may be happy to update.

Anyway feel free to continue discussion but this doesn't justify being open and the objection is so poorly argued. We made the decision, a little breakage will happen but will be worth it.

[Wuzzy2]

Looks like you ninja'd a comment right after my comment. :D

Again, a standard can be changed and that's what we're doing.

See, that's exactly what is wrong. MTG is NOT the leader. You just unilaterally decided to “change the standard”. But it doesn't work that way. Other games/mods disagree. If we take this attitude to its logical conclution, the result is an unholy mess of incompatible groups. Which means as a modder, you have to add many bullshit color groups just to make it work in multiple games.
Instead of having to set just use one color group scheme that worlds everywhere.

Well it is

No. An argument from popularity is not an argument at all.

"Are the MTG-based games using the groups for anything, apart from having them specified in the copied version of the dye mod?"

That's completely besides the point. The point is that every dye mod in these games should have the same groups. The mods might be “happy to update”, but the games probably not.
In other words, to ensure maximum compability as a modder, you have to combine the worst of two worlds:
1) The groups from the non-MTG games that are all the same
2) The groups from MTG that are different

Again: How do you think that mods should cope with this unilateral change to ensure maximum compability with most games (including MTG)?

[paramat]

I looked at the history of the dye mod. The colour groups were added in that form 6 years ago in early MT 0.4 when the dye mod was first added to MTG, out of nowhere by celeron55 with no PR or discussion or explanation of why it was that way. So it's long overdue for reconsideration and MT 5.0 is the optimum time to make a change.

The forum post shows that we have consulted with modders about the change in order to hear any concerns and objections, and there have been none apart from yourself. This is very relevant.

MTG is the leader (not for much longer though) because it is the only official game and a modding base with by far the largest infuence how MT mods are written. These mods then infuence how other games are written. So games can update too if they wish or use their own dye colour groups. The standard dye groups is not a big issue, it was complex and now it's simpler. Most games probably don't much care and will just use what everyone else uses, which will soon be the new standard.

I'm sorry you don't like the change but you're in a minority of one so far.

[Ezhh]

After all your searching we're now down to four mods. The fact that four mods is all that's been found in this time that might now have compatibility issues between games (we're assuming they would not have other compatibility issues anyway), is a very small number of mods. There's been, as paramat pointed out, 6 years worth of these groups existing for them to make it into mods, but we have four, not even one a year. This isn't much breakage at all.

As for the games, them having different groups actually only matters if there are mods using them. That's why it's worth looking at how often the groups are actually used in mods.

You could, you know, at least try to use the unicolor group.

This is actually the possibility I was going to explore, but the dramatics and accusations don't motivate.

I don't like that attitude.

You're funny, wuzzy.

[paanrama]

MTG is NOT the leader.

I think that MTG is the leader, if not it would not have a lot of forks and variants, and not be used as the base for a lot of other games. If MTG is not the lider it can make all changes that it want without asking, and this discussion be irrelevant.

[Wuzzy2]

Mods are not the whole story here.
Why do you keep dismissing the usage in games entirely? It's not good if games have two wildly-different, conflicting color schemes. That kind of defeats the point of groups.

What do you think is easier to achive?

1. EVERY SINGLE game in the list switches to whatever MTG thinks is best
2. MTG makes a small incremental change that is an improvement while at least trying to have some backwards-compability

Also, it has not been espablished at all why unicolor is bad. I think it's quite good. It offers a wide range of colors and is fairly generic and re-usable. The colors have some logic and system behind them. It works.

But the new color scheme is LESS flexible than unicolor. There is no genericism at all. You basically only added the wool colors. I mean, come on! This is not generic at all. There's dark green but no dark blue. There's pink and light gray, but no other bright colors. This doesn't even make sense.
This color system is so obviously biased towards MTG that it's useless for anything but mods for MTG. It can't even be re-used in other games if they change the colors even slightly.

If you really wanted to improve colors, you would have at least tried to have some system here. Like unicolor already offers.

I think the easiest and best simplification would be to drop basecolor_ and excolor_ as legacy while only leaving unicolor_. This is still a massive simplification AND also backwards-compatible.

With such a change, your “it's only 4 mods” argument would also actually be meaningful.

[paramat]

Unicolor describes brown as dark orange, and pink as light red, many people don't make this connection, i didn't for most of my life until i studied colur more.

The forum thread has been open almost a month now, still not any other complaints there or here. I must admit i expected more complaints.