Minetest_game: Add furnace alloy support

[rubenwardy]

This is not correct, steel is an alloy of iron and carbon
[EDIT by paramat: Not correct.]

Furnaces don't support making alloys, so there are 3 options:

• Add alloy support
• Combine iron with coal to make a new craft item - steel mix or smth
• Rename steel and steel-based items to iron

[pauloue]

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel#Steel_production:

When iron is smelted from its ore, it contains more carbon than is desirable. To become steel, it must be reprocessed to reduce the carbon to the correct amount, at which point other elements can be added.

and from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron:

Crude iron metal is produced in blast furnaces, where ore is reduced by coke to pig iron, which has a high carbon content. Further refinement with oxygen reduces the carbon content to the correct proportion to make steel.

So iron + coal probably wouldn't make sense.

[Fixer-007]

Yeah, it was "Secret de Polichinelle" tbh, it is not even close to approximation of realism.
Here is what we have at the moment:
Iron (iron bars out of steel :thinking: )

Steel

Brainstorming:
1) You need charcoal to smelt iron oxide, coal is not good for this :thinking:
2) MTG has stone with iron, you can interpret it as iron oxide ore, but when you mine it - you get native ore look, that is incorrect, it is extremely rare IRL or found in meteorites, Minecraft approach is "correct", mining iron ore gives you stone with iron block that will be smelted down the road.
3) Steel is meme at this point, there are two primary ways to handle it:
3.1) Wrought iron way - ore is smelted in bloomery furnace (aka furnace) into sponge iron by using charcoal, then hammer is used to make wrought iron (how we get iron ingots out of this? :thinking:)
3.2) Steel way - ore is smelted in blast furnace (aka furnace) into pig iron by using charcoal or coal coke, then somehow converted to steel (via ancient way?), steel ingots suggest iron was liquefied, for which blast furnace is used.
4) Flint and steel requires steel since iron and its alloys do not produce sparks easily - oooops, iron bars are made out of steel somehow in this game
5) Google more on ancient ways of steel production :thinking:

[paramat]

Hmm looks like iron + carbon is not correct anyway, however:

I prefer allowing funaces to accept multiple inputs, will have many uses, like maybe copper + tin for bronze.
Combining craftitems is hacky but acceptable, maybe for short term, we do it for bronze already.

Changing items from steel to iron:
I'm very strongly opposed, lots of texture work, lots of mod breakage as many items are intended to be 'steel' and textured that way. Shiny steel is a much more satisfying and better-looking material to have than iron.
/////////////////

We could perhaps assume the furnace automatically processes to reduce carbon content? Or make steel production slightly more realistic in some way (not sure how), we shouldn't get too realistic though as MTG isn't much.
We could change the description of iron bars.

[TumeniNodes]

**The discovery was made by anthropologist Peter Schmidt and metallurgy professor Donald Avery, both of Brown University. Very few of the Haya remember how to make steel but the two scholars were able to locate one man who made a traditional ten-foot-high cone shaped furnace from slag and mud. It was built over a pit with partially burned wood that supplied the carbon which was mixed with molten iron to produce steel. Goat skin bellows attached to eight ceramic tubs that entered the base of the charcoal-fueled furnace pumped in enough oxygen to achieve temperatures high enough to make carbon steel (3275 degrees F). [Ibid]

excerpt from the last section of this topic: http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub362/item1495.html

This is a good bit of information, and may be helpful if anyone decides to just replan all the ore/metals/tools aspects of the game some day...

[paramat]

Reading up on this, there is such a thing as high carbon steel, but it is brittle so probably not what we want for weapons and tools. It seems we are making reduced carbon steel (iron with removed carbon) which in early industrial times was made by forcing air (oxygen) through molten iron.
So the first comment here is partly a misunderstanding.

If we wanted to make this more realistic we could add a 'bellows' node that is placed beside the furnace and checked for. But then the creation of other metals may also use bellows, perhaps it's better to keep it simple and assume the single furnace node contains bellows etc. for multiple types of smelting?

Iron ore smelting to steel is not a big issue because it is roughly correct, we have just left out some details. The production of other metals is likely more complex too, we also form tools from raw diamonds.
The furnace is more a symbol for a process than being realistic and we shouldn't get too realistic.

I still support an alloy furnace for copper + tin = bronze since crafting ingots together is very hacky, that is a bigger issue here.

Another bigger issue here is the fact that tools have durability as if bronze is tougher than steel, steel is being treated as if it is iron (what a mess!), we need to reverse the order of steel and bronze.

[tenplus1]

+100 for alloy smelter to give a level 2 for high temp metals to be smelted, leaving the default furnace as level 1 for food and iron only.

[Fixer-007]

alloy furnace for copper + tin

Another furnace just for useless metal for useless tool (aka bronze, that is unpopular and unbalanced), that will only make situation worse.

[paramat]

No same furnace, just add multiple inputs. It won't be just for bronze it will be useful in other ways.

[cx384]

I think we should keep steel and change the progression line as paramat said.

1. Wood (trees)
2. Stone (ground)
3. Bronze (alloy furnace / add multiple inputs to the normal furnace) and maybe iron, copper or other materials
4. Steel (blast furnace / add bellows for the normal furnace)
5. Mese/Diamond (ores)

[paramat]

2096 merged.

[Fixer-007]

There is another problem, if we want more realistic steel production, then other metal production should be evaluated.

[Ferk]

I think it's ok to skip realism when it's for the sake of simplifying things, gameplay is more important. The problem is that having bronze be better for tools than steel is not a simplification, it's plain backwards and it's not something people who don't know the game would expect.

I agree with the idea of requiring an evolved furnace for smelting steel. It will reverse the equation and give a bronze tier, adding up to the game progression. I already suggested this in the past.

Though if bronze is changed it probably would be good to not make it too weak, just marginally weaker than steel would be fine. There are more advantages to steel than just the tools and it would be good to still be able to use some bronze after having a steel forge, even if just for the sake of saving up on steel.

About having an "alloy furnace", honestly to me it looks like it's a bit too much, unless it's done in a simple (for the user) and generic way (usable for other things than just bronze).
To me it should be treated as a separate issue. But just an idea: have a furnace with a 2x2 inventory that acts at the same time as input and output. So you can cook combined things inside like bronze. Also with merged input+output it would add some extra gameplay element if things like bread can turn into ashes when you leave the grain for too long inside the oven (imagine an "overcooked" kind of gameplay, where you need to time things right to properly cook them).

[benrob0329]

Iirc historically MT had an overcook mechanic.

[paramat]

Engine part of alloy furnace request.
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7300

[ghost]

I don't think the input and output should be combined. This messes with mass smelting ores and cooking food and bricks. Perhaps the "overcooking" happens only in the output, if it left there too long when there is still fuel being burned. And that can have some interesting affects on the metals.

I would think we should have a 3x3 input grid with a 2x2 output grid. That way there can be support for more complex smelting. We could have the current recipe for bronze (8 copper surrounding 1 tin) but in the furnace instead of crafting it. There may be some items that could be crafted in the furnace like this, but not all metal items should be. Like a steel pick probably shouldn't be forged like that. It would be better if the steel tools and items were crafted on an anvil. That would be fun.

This kind of realism adds onto gameplay, and makes it more challenging, which can be fun unless it is too difficult. I would think that these ideas wouldn't be bad for gameplay.

[maxoutrunner]

Do we really need steel in the base game?

Rather than having steel, I'd have pure iron, and leave steel production to the modders.

[rubenwardy]

No, steel probably isn't needed. But it would be nice to have support for alloying

[paramat]

Well, too late, we can't remove steel items now =)

[TumeniNodes]

Remove steel???
Good Lord... could you imagine the revolt? That would probably come close to another catastrophic change not too long ago, which shall not be called by name.

[Fixer-007]

Do we really need steel in the base game?

What is even a base game? I think this is road to further disaster.

[benrob0329]

If you renamed steel to wrought iron or even just iron most players probably wouldn't even notice. A lot of servers use technic on top of this, and most people I talk to agree that the steel naming doesn't make sense.

[Ezhh]

If you renamed steel to wrought iron

So long as it's the description that changes, not the node name... but then we have to think about how confusing the node name not matching the description would be.

[paramat]

'Removing steel' was just a casual remark by a person who prefers iron, which ignored the many serious problems it would cause. It's completely unnecessary, not remotely justified and isn't worth considering. Yes i do think we need steel in MTG since it's such a fundamental material and the only modern material (we need at least one).

A lot of servers use technic on top of this, and most people I talk to agree that the steel naming doesn't make sense.

These people misunderstand then. The first post in this thread was a misunderstanding, it does make sense that iron smelts to steel, we assume the furnace has oxygen-blasting. What we have is just a super-simple representation of the production of steel from iron. This simplification also ignores the various minor ingredients that go into steel. It's just a simplification, not an error.

Also, what another mod does is of little importance here, we don't develop MTGame to fit around other mods, other mods should fit around MTGame if they are meant to be based on MGame. If technic does something which makes MTGame seem wrong that's the fault and responsibility of the mod.
I have opened issues at technic because it is in some ways poorly coded, like many popular mods are.

The only valid question here about iron is: Should we add iron as another material.

[ghost]

Yes.

[benrob0329]

Should we add iron as another material.

Noo, please not another material with no real in-game use case.

[Ezhh]

Adding iron would be insanity.

Paramat, the steel in MTG doesn't make sense. Unless there are mods that actually depend on it being steel and not iron, the only barrier to changing it is the name issue and wanting to avoid aliases (that can be enough of a reason by itself). Please don't claim people don't understand just because they are willing to explore methods of solving things that you don't personally agree with.

Either way, I'm not pushing for any change, because it's almost guaranteed there'll be complaints no matter what happens. An alloy furnace would be nice though. It's something I'd support.

[maxoutrunner]

Hello, and thanks for the responses! Below I shall provide the comments on some of the @paramat 's points.

MTGame to fit around other mods, other mods should fit around MTGame if they are meant to be based on MGame. If technic does something which makes MTGame seem wrong that's the fault and responsibility of the mod.

While this is technically correct, I find this attitude a bit jarring. This, perhaps, streams from this project being led by a personal vision, rather than an established public roadmap. While intentions may be good, a lack of public expression of the greater vision, the end goal and the final bullet list of the features, and therefore possible straying from the path towards the final and solid basegame may do more harm. Having something quantifiable to strive towards is much better than being open-ended. And thanks to the modular structure of Minetest, everything but the established basics can always be added.

However it may seem, minetest_game is the "default" content pack for the Minetest, one of the most modable sandboxes out there, and thus is destined to serve as a foundation for the other mods. Therefore, the goal zero, the most important one, should be to provide a solid foundation. Of course I'm not saying that minetest_game absolutely have to be shaped by the angry modders, but for this one case I have at least three arguments.

First is realism. Aha, in an abstract survival game. It is a weak point because, as you yourself said,

What we have is just a super-simple representation of the production of steel from iron. This simplification also ignores the various minor ingredients that go into steel. It's just a simplification, not an error.

And here we come to a second point - complicating to simplify.

While this may be as obvious as painful, we should not forget the original game, which this one is based off, and that the players mainly come from that game to this one. And therefore, they have certain expectations. Having a lump of iron ore to yield an iron ingot is but one of them.
The best simplification - item "A" to item "Refined A" was already invented before. It does not account for "minor ingredients" and "manufacturing nuances". It simply converts a material to it's refined _namesake_, especially since pure iron is a thing. Having a complex material being manufactured in a simplified manner is not a good way to simplify things, when you can have a simpler material being manufactured in it's stead.

And the third thing - time.

Yes i do think we need steel in MTG since it's such a fundamental material and the only modern material (we need at least one).

You know what is good in the original game? It's timeless. The technology level stands where it can easily and safely fit in just about any setting: cavemen survival, medieval, classic fantasy, lo-, hi-tech, sci-fantasy and beyond.

Just in the original game, minetest_game has this timeless feel, so saying "modern" in regard to the default game sounds anachronistic, because there is no old and modern where there is no time. Having a "modern" material being pushed into a timeless enviroment without a modern vision is another example of unnecessary complication, where one strives to simplify.

If nothing else, having iron and maybe a line of iron tools, along with an alloy/blast furnace for steel, is a good compromise. This way the backwards compatibility will stay, and it will become easier for modders to implement their own vision on the complex and amazing world of steel manufacturing.

Thank you for reading!

[paramat]

:+1: for an alloy furnace.

[tenplus1]

@maxoutrunner - that's why I made the pigiron mod to add in iron tools and have a special smelting recipe for steel, but an alloy furnace would be a better method :)

[paramat]

Closing due to #2710