Halflife: Extending some engine limits

[Arkshine]

It would be a good opportunity to slightly increase some max values.

Proposed limits are based on http://code.google.com/p/sing-engine/.
Relevant limits and value would be :

• MAX_MODELS 1024 (default: 512)
• MAX_SOUNDS 1024 (default: 512)
• MAX_BEAMS 256 (default: 64)
• MAX_TEMPENTS 1024 (default 500)
• MAX_MAP_MODELS 512 (default: 256)
• MAX_MAP_LEAFS 16384 (default: 8192)

I think it's fair values. Of course higher values are welcomed (like Sing) but as it is it would be already really useful and awesome.

It will contribute to make everyone happy : the mappers would be able to do better maps (larger/more detailed/etc..), the coders will have more room to do custom stuffs, the admins will see their servers crashing less often, and the players will see their gaming experience improving.

Thanks for considering those changes, which are, I think, quite reasonable and realizable.

[PM32]

One of the best requests that must be done, +1

[zapy85]

+1 on Arkshine
And an extension of chat messages would be nice as well!

[911r0ck]

Dont forget Motd character limit !!!
Please increase it from 1536 to at least double ! or 4000

[cTmoNe]

It would be a big favor if you enlarge this limit.

[tehORiON]

This would be a welcome change, would prefer however limits more along the lines of those in the sing-engine, if possible.

[Sence]

Yea this would be awesome! +1

[ghost]

I totally agree

[tschumann]

Just on this, it would be helpful too if the engine didn't crash if it can't precache a model when developer mode is enabled.
If an ERROR sprite or model was displayed instead that would be nice.

[ghost]

If an ERROR sprite or model was displayed instead that would be nice.

Good suggestion

[DanTheMan1]

This would be great, also an increased MAX_EDICTS for all GoldSource games, not just hl1.

[tehORiON]

@alfred-valve Any update on whether or not this change is realizable?

[crustypig]

im curious as to whether these increases are possible within the scope of the current updates - it would be a great boost for the modding community

[tehORiON]

Think alfred will get to this eventually, but right now there are many bugs that need to be addressed first.

[KiaArmani]

@alfred-valve Any updates / news about this?
I'm currently writing a bigger mod, but the precache limit is making many problems.

[KiaArmani]

https://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/valve-corporation-extending-limits-of-the-goldsrc-engine

[jeremymerriam]

Hi Valve and valve gaming community. We are currently working on a new Half-life gaming mod (half-life: Control) and our mod is looking to push the very limits with mapping and the way the map interacts with players. Currently, I am at 98% the clipnode max, and very close to maxing out other specs, so it would be greatly appreciated to see these limits being boosted.

Thanks,

Jeremy

[heylol]

FFS VALVE WORKERS THE LEAST YOU CAN DO IS RESPOND

[joropito]

I guess this is out of scope of these updates so try to not bother posting over and over again

[alfred-valve]

We have no plans on doing the major reworking required by this bug at this time, but we will keep tracking it in case future plans make this something we can address.

[KiaArmani]

Alright, thanks for your response.

[heylol]

@alfred-valve Just saying its not a bug.. we're asking for increasment of precache limit. And its not like a define constant variable you guys can change ?

[joropito]

@heylol I don't think it's a really easy job. They have to update VHE to follow new limits, check structs contrains and make sure there's no hardcoded values in the code.
Also testing this kind of change will take a lot of time.

[heylol]

@alfred-valve
@bdeen-valve
@triage-valve
@martino-valve
@ValveSoftware

Please dont forget about the CS 1.6 community :|

[MrSchism]

I can guarantee that they haven't forgotten

It was unnecessary to mention everyone as well as the four mentioned above. Moreover, just posting here puts an email into our inboxes.

[heylol]

you can guarantee ? how exactly ? ;o
I'm just anxious about this, CS 1.6 was and will remain my favourite game it brings so much memories and I cant just give up on this game, updating the engine limit will make the game so much better than it is now and I just hope I'll have the chance to see it happens :|

[tehORiON]

It's really quite simple, they don't have time to bother with this at present time.

[zapy85]

@heylol @tehORiON because hes a valve-software employee...

[heylol]

@zapy85 thought valve employees have valve in their github name ;o
I just hope they'll do icrease the engine limits @_@

[zapy85]

@heylol https://github.com/ValveSoftware?tab=members
https://github.com/MrSchism
left side, Organizations

or at least he has some connections to it!

anyway back to topic!

Late Happy New Year!

[Tele42]

MrSchism and Johndrinkwater are community moderators for most of these issue trackers, they are not paid workers but are fairly well connected.

[SeekingJustice]

Just as long as something like this wouldn't lead to that damn SVC_bad error popping up again. I'm for it.

[MaximilianKohler]

If Valve is ignoring game-breaking bugs what makes you think they'd work on this enhancement?

[heylol]

you make it sound like extending the limits is not important.. IT IS

[MaximilianKohler]

That's not what I mean. What I'm saying is that there are more important things that are being ignored so why do you think they'd work on this.

It's like if you want to get a job and you have a beard, no dress clothes, and have a bleeding finger that was just amputated. If you're going to ignore the finger in order to shave your beard...

[heylol]

The only thing I think was game breaking in this game is some admin commands like cd and stuff to affect user, the other things are minor imho and this thing have demand, and its been open for almost a year and I dont understand why its being ignored when so many people want it

[MaximilianKohler]

This https://github.com/ValveSoftware/halflife/issues/1417 and this https://github.com/ValveSoftware/halflife/issues/1183 are both game breaking bugs. But not everyone experiences them. There are likely others which I have not experienced but other people have.

[heylol]

not such game breaking imho not saying they're shouldnt being taken care of but there're much worser than this this is not GAMEBREAKING

[heylol]

any news @MrSchism

[MrSchism]

This one will probably not happen any time soon due to it being, in the words of the developer, "unsafe". That being said, they've tried it and found it flawed and unlikely to be beneficial enough when you consider the likely development/implementation drawbacks.

Regarding game-breaking bugs... they will be the primary focus on this tracker to help refocus on major issues.

[heylol]

Is this ever going to be implemented ? god im starting to lose hope ._.

[Freeman-AM]

There is so many game breaking that should be fixed before that one.. just look.
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/halflife/issues/1425 for example

[heylol]

So tired of leeches like you that trying to get attention to their threads in a thread like this because it is being discussed alot, there isnt even a connection between BUGS to what this thread is about, this thread is a SUGGETION, so instead of trying get the mods view your threads by posting them here dont ... and there's no problem with fast download you just dont know how to set it up probably -_-

[Freeman-AM]

Okay, thanks bro ! :)

I was just point out that the scope of half life and CS updates was to fix the game, prior to add improvement.
There is so many bug left, they can't go for improvement yet.

[msavegamer]

Help circumvent the limit of functions WRITE_COORD and READ_COORD to the value 65536. Problem that can not be sent coordinate values ​​above 8192. Effects of explosions, decals after explosion and spraypaint just do not work above the limit of 8192. Need help. Help circumvent this limit

[Skumek]

@alfred-valve Hello !

[ghost]

Any news on this one? I just wasted like 5 hours debugging something that I can't make a proper fix for, because it involves the tempent limit (which is just a #define hidden behind some closed source code in hlds).

It's troubling when an untrustworthy reverse-engineered hlds ( #1669 ) is my best option for doing what I want with my mod...

[ViBE-HU]

since Valve does not care who else would care...so nothing changed.

[tschumann]

@johnstt I think Sven Coop may have upped a lot of limits but I haven't yet looked into the viability of using it as the engine to base a mod off.

[Mu1Sa12]

Thanks for that but; where is download link?
how can I get it?

[Skumek]

There is other engines with increased limit. The engine "Xash3d" is still in development to this day.
There would be a very good option to let server managers have more power over their servers, for example editing MAX_EDICTS or similar define.

http://www.moddb.com/engines/xash3d-engine

Basic limits.
Xash3D limits are not just higher than Half-Life ones, they also can be tuned in gameinfo.txt file.

• MAX_EDICTS is 600 - 4096 (versus 900 in Half-Life).
• MAX_TEMPENTS is 300 - 2048 (vs. 500).
• MAX_PARTICLES is 1024 - 8192 (vs. 4096).
• MAX_BEAMS is 64 - 512 (vs. 64)
  Careful limits reduction can save RAM in mods which don't need many edicts. Also MAX_EDICTS parameter is broadcasted from server during a multiplayer session, it adjusts clients to new conditions automatically.

Other limits.

These limits are engine-hardcoded and can not be tuned by user.

• MAX_VISIBLE_PACKET is 512 entities (256 in Half-Life).
• MAX_MODELS is 2048 unique models (including sprites and bmodels)
• MAX_SOUNDS is 2048
• MAX_SENTENCES is 2048 (1534 in Half-Life)
• MAX_USER_MESSAGES is 191 (128 in WON Half-Life)
• MAX_TEXTURES is 4096 (2048 of them can be used for VGUI)
• MAX_MESSAGES is 2048 (1024 in Half-Life) (quantity of messages in titles.txt)
• Maximum size for indexed textures is 4096х4096 (vs. 512х512 in Half-Life)
• Maximum size for true-color textures is 4096x4096.

Limits for bsp-models.

• MAX_MAP_MODELS 1024 (256 in half-life)
• MAX_MAP_LEAFS 32767 (8192 in half-life)
  Note: other BSP-model limits are specified by compiler tools and don't depend on the engine.

[ghost]

So we have a reverse-engineered hlds and a replacement half-life engine as options.
Why not just open source the rest of the Half-Life code (i.e. the engine, hlds, ...)?

Having this repo has allowed lots of people to submit fixes for the SDK (and it would be even more useful if anyone was maintaining it). Wouldn't it be nice to update the engine and hlds the same way?
It's not feasible for me to switch my mod over to using some guy's untrustworthy server and some guy's untrustworthy engine.

What's the legality of using an alternative Half-Life engine when the real engine is closed source and you have to buy it from Valve? Seems like a bit of a tricky situation.

[tschumann]

@Mu1Sa12 the latest Sven Coop is available on Steam I think.

[tschumann]

Interesting reading here anyway: http://forums.svencoop.com/showthread.php/43228-A-very-technical-explanation-regarding-the-engine
And as alluded to in that thread, you can't mount mods in Sven Coop (technically you sort of can but not everything can be overridden - the .dll files for one).

[ghost]

What good is any of that to someone maintaining a Half-Life mod that people play through Steam?

Why don't the Sven co-op developers with engine access help improve hlds and the hl engine? Why have there been no commits on this repo since December 2014?

[ViBE-HU]

@johnstt cause HL1 support ended. CS:GO = bunch of money. and you know, money talks. that's the priority.

[ghost]

So why not leave it up to the community, then? Not just the sven co-op community, mind you...

[justgo97]

any news on this after the last update ?

[Solokiller]

I don't see any increase in engine limits. It's not a critical issue so they didn't touch it.

[TatuEugen]

Please increase precache limit to 2048 :D :D :D

[brlight]

3 Years and nothing was done.....

cause HL1 support ended. CS:GO = bunch of money. and you know, money talks. that's the priority.

[zapy85]

@alfred-valve anything you could look in to? still a great game and a big modding community!

[gtteamamxx]

What about it ? :)
Please , make this happen.

[exzey]

@alfred-valve We want an increasment for the limits again... Or make an option to make it editable for everyone... Please we beggin you ?

[ENTPRESTIGIOUS]

Anything new?

[CrazY770]

Valve won't touch anymore in any goldsrc game, at least for those who are developers and/or server owner. You still didn't understand why? They want to kill goldsrc games and keep only source games alive, otherwise people is going to make amazing mods for goldsrc games without pay anything instead of buy paid source games at steam.

If we had source code, we could fix these issues ourselves, but the probability of they share it is 0,0001%.
There is the option of reverse engineered, but it is not allowed by Valve and is there limitations due client-side that we cannot change.

The only option we have is optimize the resources of server the most we are able (models added as sub-model, sprites as frames, sounds packed...) or develop a poor mod.

[hogsy]

I've been watching this thread for a while and I'm not too sure what people are expecting.

@CrazY770 your comment is especially unhelpful and paranoid.

They want to kill goldsrc games and keep only source games alive [...]

It's not like they're extending engine limits for Source Engine games on request. If you didn't notice, the Source SDK 2013 hasn't been updated in a long long time and it's probably never going to see an update again considering Valve are moving internally to their new Source 2 Engine.

I think you need to understand that extending engine limits requires a developer within Valve to take the time to do it and then takes several people to ensure nothing was broken in the process.

Compared to other projects that Valve have on-going, the request to increase the engine limits for GoldSrc is like a drip in the ocean - why are they inclined to bother?

[...]otherwise people is going to make amazing mods for goldsrc games without pay anything instead of buy paid source games at steam.

Not even sure what you're trying to say here.

If you're referring to licensing, as far as I understand it, Valve don't have a licensing team for the Source Engine anymore - but you're more than welcome to develop free games using the Source Engine anyway.

[...] or develop a poor mod.

Several GoldSrc mods, such as Counter-Strike and Natural Selection, would like a word with you. If you're trying to create something outside the scope of what the GoldSrc engine can do, you should probably consider using the Source Engine instead.

[ghost]

ns is under active development, and I bet they would prefer to have an open/updated engine.

The same goes for any other mods still in development - all are limited at some level by the closed-source engine (either limits like the number of entities, or just unfixable bugs).

The rest of what you said is exactly right - there is not enough incentive for someone at Valve to spend time on this, so they are not.

[hogsy]

If you're choosing to develop with an older engine, I don't really get how
you can then complain about being technologically constrained.

Nobody is forcing you to use GoldSrc, and if you want to do more, well, use
Source.

Part of the fun of working with older tech is working under constraints.

On Mon, 10 Dec 2018, 23:08 aaaaaaaaa <[email protected] wrote:

ns is under active development, and I bet they would prefer to have an
open/updated engine.

The same goes for any other mods still in development - all are limited at
some level by the closed-source engine (either limits like the number of
entities, or just unfixable bugs).

The rest of what you said is exactly right - there is not enough incentive
for someone at Valve to spend time on this, so they are not.

—
You are receiving this because you commented.
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/halflife/issues/12#issuecomment-446009316,
or mute the thread
https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AB2y_vAX2WpaYDcikzj6YIlIjUBV-6Y8ks5u3umJgaJpZM4Abqh2
.

[ENTPRESTIGIOUS]

The point why I still like using the old goldsrc engine is that it is compatible with AMX MOD X and you can add weapons unlike the other games with NST plugin

[CrazY770]

I'm not talking about goldsrc/source mod, you should first make sure to after start to say bullshits, but anyway yes, my post is unhelpful as every other posts that was did here, because goldsrc stay same and will not be updated only because people is complaining, that's what I wanted to point here.

[Solokiller]

If you're choosing to develop with an older engine, I don't really get how you can then complain about being technologically constrained. Nobody is forcing you to use GoldSrc, and if you want to do more, well, use Source. Part of the fun of working with older tech is working under constraints.
…
On Mon, 10 Dec 2018, 23:08 aaaaaaaaa @.* wrote: ns is under active development, and I bet they would prefer to have an open/updated engine. The same goes for any other mods still in development - all are limited at some level by the closed-source engine (either limits like the number of entities, or just unfixable bugs). The rest of what you said is exactly right - there is not enough incentive for someone at Valve to spend time on this, so they are not. — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#12 (comment)>, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AB2y_vAX2WpaYDcikzj6YIlIjUBV-6Y8ks5u3umJgaJpZM4Abqh2 .

I'm having a lot of fun completely bypassing the engine limits by making an engine-as-a-mod. It's a challenge, but it's possible.

[ENTPRESTIGIOUS]

The engines don't work. It has problems with my client.dll

[WaLkZa]

@mikela-valve up

[voed]

up

[TatuEugen]

up, make it happen pls

[2010kohtep]

Dear @mikela-valve, please, make it happen. :)

[metita]

@mikela-valve is this going to be discussed in the near future? or is not going to happen? We would like to know about this top-tier feature request :)

[MatiasEsf]

Please, increasing the limits is the only thing that the community has wanted all these years ... make our wish come true

[ENTPRESTIGIOUS]

Yes, I agree. We should all make this happen and potentially make this game stand out from the rest of the other games.

[CS-PRO1]

I wonder if 8-bit limit for .bmp textures of models could be removed, or at least moved to 16-bit..

[Solokiller]

No, it's part of the model format and can't be changed.

[BlackShadow]

@mikela-valve removing 512x512 texture resolution limit from models (weapons/player) and map textures will open gates to many new things. Limit should be 4096x4096 if that's reachable.

[TatuEugen]

Please don't forget about precache limit 512, increase to 2048 at least, because servers can't use too many things cuz this error...

[seypaa]

precache limit can be changed ?

[ChakkiSkrip]

What about to increase value -num_edicts from 900 to max value? Players with server can sweep with an error Host_Error: CL_EntityNum.

[ChakkiSkrip]

@mikela-valve removing 512x512 texture resolution limit from models (weapons/player) and map textures will open gates to many new things. Limit should be 4096x4096 if that's reachable.

If you want to make skins from cs go, maybe it's better to cut them?
My personal opinion, more than 512x512 do not need, it is not important. For this engine 512x512 is quite enough for many people. There has to be a balance between architecture detail and texture quality, you know?

[BlackShadow]

No i said it should be 4096x4096 because it's the probaly highest limit Goldsrc can reach. But yet again, even if the limit was 4096x4096 somebody can still do textures with 512x512. So the upgrades are always appricated.

[afwn90cj93201nixr2e1re]

Fix fps issues with TE_DLIGHT

[JohanCorn]

So? Dear Developers, I have only 2 questions for you. Is it possible to extend the limits? If the first is true: Will you extend them in the future? I just want clear answers from the real workers. Thanks!

[metita]

@JohanCorn This is already considered to be implemented in the near-future, there are more important features/bugs/security fixes to add before starting improving/extending the engine.

[JohanCorn]

@basuritashka Thanks for the hope!

[afwn90cj93201nixr2e1re]

Also we should create separate buffer for map .res files. Coz they r take some space in model buffer with .bsp file.

But at start we should refactor OpenGL rendering. Coz now its just piece of shit.

[Solokiller]

So? Dear Developers, I have only 2 questions for you. Is it possible to extend the limits? If the first is true: Will you extend them in the future? I just want clear answers from the real workers. Thanks!

1. Yes, but doing so will break compatibility with older clients, such as No-Steam/cracked clients. That's a big decision to make.
2. This issue is a candidate for a future release so it's pretty likely.

The network protocol will need a major revision to support higher limits since even the current limit can't be fully utilized. See #2534 for that.

[CS-PRO1]

I guess it's far enough for non-steam clients dominating the game and servers. They either have to purchase the legal steam version or update theirs (which is unlikely). I really hate how servers that use cracked version are using old un-compatible sprite files for smoke puffs and others so I can't join them.

[Bounty780]

@mikela-valve Have you considered increasing GoldSrc limits in CSO or CS:NZ?

[Solokiller]

Neither of those are created by Valve, other companies manage those engine forks.

[Bounty780]

Neither of those are created by Valve, other companies manage those engine forks.

Errr... Has NEXON considered making the forks open-source? If yes, can I get a link?

[Solokiller]

Neither of those are created by Valve, other companies manage those engine forks.

Errr... Has NEXON considered making the forks open-source? If yes, can I get a link?

Not as far as i know of. I'm not a lawyer but i think any open sourcing would require approval from both Id Software and Valve, and if Valve were to permit it it they'd probably do it themselves first.

[Bounty780]

Neither of those are created by Valve, other companies manage those engine forks.

Errr... Has NEXON considered making the forks open-source? If yes, can I get a link?

Not as far as i know of. I'm not a lawyer but i think any open sourcing would require approval from both Id Software and Valve, and if Valve were to permit it it they'd probably do it themselves first.

Why id Software? I thought GoldSrc was made from scratch.

[tschumann]

GoldSource is based heavily on the Quake engine - lots of the internals are similar or the same but stuff like coloured lighting, per-texture palettes and client and server .dll files were added.

[Bounty780]

GoldSource is based heavily on the Quake engine - lots of the internals are similar or the same but stuff like coloured lighting, per-texture palettes and client and server .dll files were added.

id Software should've forgiven that. ;)

[Zetz512]

don't you think its time to force no-steam to use steam? and cmon...

if valve update the steam client, in the next week you got a version of steamrip to playing normally on steam servers or where dproto/reunion is active...

Stop thinking that if we break something, everything has already been fucked...

We suggest modifications for a best ambience and a best entertainment with some custom mods...damn..

[ThomasJaeger]

Has anyone tried increasing these limits and compile the server and tested them? If not, I would be willing to make these changes.

[twisterniq]

Has anyone tried increasing these limits and compile the server and tested them? If not, I would be willing to make these changes.

As far as I know, these limits are not only server-side, but client-side too.

[ThomasJaeger]

I'm trying to solve the

"PF_precache_model_I: Model 'models/[pickyourmodel]' failed to precache because the item count is over the 512 limit."

precache error specifically. This only occurs on the server side.

[twisterniq]

I'm trying to solve the

"PF_precache_model_I: Model 'models/[pickyourmodel]' failed to precache because the item count is over the 512 limit."

precache error specifically. This only occurs on the server side.

If you increase it, client just will have bugs with that models/sprites... IIRC, he just will not be able to see new models. At the moment, we can use Ultimate Unprecacher to unprecache unused models/sprites...

[ThomasJaeger]

Thanks for the Unprecacher but that seems very hacky and won't really guarantee a clean solution. Looking at the source code, I see the following for example:

#define MAX_MAP_MODELS 400

in file \halflife\utils\common\bspfile.h which is used in several places. I have never compiled the goldsource. Where is the client source code? Is it even available? Or am I just missing it somewhere?

[ThomasJaeger]

I just realized that the client can't be part of the repo because the steampipe is distributing the clients by Valve. So, even I could compile the client it won't help since players will get the clients always from Steam.

[RauliTop]

I just realized that the client can't be part of the repo because the steampipe is distributing the clients by Valve. So, even I could compile the client it won't help since players will get the clients always from Steam.

Of course, that's why Valve is the only who can achieve it.

[uniarch]

So? Dear Developers, I have only 2 questions for you. Is it possible to extend the limits? If the first is true: Will you extend them in the future? I just want clear answers from the real workers. Thanks!

1. Yes, but doing so will break compatibility with older clients, such as No-Steam/cracked clients. That's a big decision to make.
2. This issue is a candidate for a future release so it's pretty likely.

The network protocol will need a major revision to support higher limits since even the current limit can't be fully utilized. See #2534 for that.

no-steam - no-support. also they always adapt to changes, so don't care about it much