Gt-new-horizons-modpack: Balance, Crops for seed oil.

[moller21]

Hey,

I wanted to test the peanuts from harvestcraft vs. rape, mostly because rape seemed very slow for all the effort you had to put into it. So i made some 11x11-13 plots for testing:

After 30 minutes this is the result:

1 | Items | Seed Oil
-- | -- | --
Peanut | 0 | 0 (Just grew now, about after 1 hour)
Peanut 4 sprinkler | 2700 | 97200
peanut 8 sprinkler(-4plot) | 4091 | 147276
Rapa 1-1 | 176 | 22000
Rape 10-10 | 379 | 47375
Rape 20-20 | 737 | 92125
Rape 31-31 | 1527 | 190875
Rape 23-31 | 1421 | 177625

So yeah, the difference isn't as big as i thought. The IC2 crops got alot better with higher stats, I guess this post is more about nerf sprinklers now?

I still think the rapeseed could use a little buff, like setting the growth size to 2 after harvested so they'll only have to grow 2 times, or 33% faster. This again because they're so hard to obtain compared to peanuts.

But mostly posting cause I spent some time on it, and it shows the growth speed of crops in case you're curious.

I also made a spreadsheet to show the return after 30 mins to verify what i found, it's about the same.

Gain | 1 | 3 | 5 | 7 | 9 | 11 | 13 | 15 | 17 | 19 | 21 | 23 | 25 | 27 | 29 | 31
-- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | --
Growth |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |  
1 | 160 | 169 | 178 | 188 | 198 | 208 | 220 | 231 | 244 | 257 | 271 | 285 | 300 | 316 | 333 | 351
3 | 202 | 213 | 224 | 236 | 249 | 262 | 276 | 291 | 307 | 323 | 340 | 359 | 378 | 398 | 419 | 441
5 | 243 | 256 | 269 | 284 | 299 | 315 | 332 | 350 | 369 | 388 | 409 | 431 | 454 | 478 | 503 | 530
7 | 283 | 298 | 314 | 331 | 349 | 368 | 387 | 408 | 430 | 453 | 477 | 502 | 529 | 557 | 587 | 618
9 | 323 | 340 | 358 | 377 | 398 | 419 | 441 | 465 | 490 | 516 | 544 | 572 | 603 | 635 | 669 | 704
11 | 362 | 381 | 402 | 423 | 446 | 470 | 495 | 521 | 549 | 578 | 609 | 642 | 676 | 712 | 749 | 789
13 | 400 | 422 | 445 | 468 | 493 | 520 | 548 | 577 | 608 | 640 | 674 | 710 | 747 | 787 | 829 | 872
15 | 439 | 462 | 487 | 513 | 540 | 569 | 599 | 631 | 665 | 700 | 738 | 777 | 818 | 861 | 907 | 955
17 | 476 | 502 | 528 | 557 | 586 | 618 | 651 | 685 | 722 | 760 | 800 | 843 | 887 | 934 | 984 | 1035
19 | 513 | 540 | 569 | 600 | 632 | 665 | 701 | 738 | 777 | 819 | 862 | 908 | 956 | 1006 | 1059 | 1115
21 | 549 | 579 | 610 | 642 | 676 | 712 | 750 | 790 | 832 | 876 | 923 | 971 | 1023 | 1077 | 1133 | 1193
23 | 585 | 616 | 649 | 684 | 720 | 759 | 799 | 841 | 886 | 933 | 982 | 1034 | 1089 | 1146 | 1206 | 1270
25 | 620 | 654 | 688 | 725 | 764 | 804 | 847 | 892 | 939 | 989 | 1041 | 1096 | 1153 | 1214 | 1278 | 1345
27 | 655 | 690 | 727 | 765 | 806 | 849 | 894 | 941 | 991 | 1043 | 1098 | 1156 | 1217 | 1281 | 1348 | 1419
29 | 689 | 726 | 765 | 805 | 848 | 893 | 940 | 990 | 1042 | 1097 | 1155 | 1216 | 1280 | 1347 | 1418 | 1492
31 | 723 | 761 | 802 | 844 | 889 | 936 | 986 | 1038 | 1092 | 1150 | 1211 | 1274 | 1341 | 1411 | 1485 | 1563

[leagris]

Nice metrics, you should compare with Forestry SweetChestnut. Even the base tree can be incredibly productive and with Yield High, Mature Faster and taller/gigantic traits it is a very good and fast source of seedoil.

[richardhendricks]

Thanks for the exhaustive work @moller21 .

This is really interesting when it comes to balancing. Should peanuts be made worse? Should Rapeseed be made better? If we make peanuts worse, players will spam them more because it is so easy to do so. I think giving rapeseed a little bit more seedoil output is probably the better idea since it would actually allow players to use less resources to grow them.

Since it is added by Gregtech, we should be able to change the maturity behavior for it. I am all for giving players who dedicate the time to breed and spread IC2 crops a bonus.

[sthegreat]

As an alternative to editing the numbers here, why not consider giving rapeseed a different output? Perhaps a "High Quality Rapeseed Oil" fluid, which could have some benefits in the biodiesel process, such as requiring less processing time, less ethanol or sodium hydroxide, could have a biodiesel output bonus, etc. In this way, rapeseed can be given a niche even if peanuts/sprinklers can be spammed to arbitrarily high outputs.

[draknyte1]

Instead of adding more recipe clutter, just have the ‘high quality’ fluid distill into the normal one at a 1:3/1:5 ratio.

[sthegreat]

That would kind of defeat the point of the high quality oil as it would then be impossible for it to have the desired better ratios when processing with ethanol and/or NaOH.

[moller21]

I like the idea of gettin a more efficient recipe for bio diesel, not sure what i could be though. There's also the issue were you want regular seedoil for some things.

Canola has a bonus over peanuts when it makes more oil per craft, and I just noticed now it uses less power.

[Prometheus0000]

What about nerfing the sprinklers so that overlapping doesn't work? People would probably like that less, but it sounds more balanced to me. And it might help TPS issues on servers where people use a lot of them?

Also, could you test for what the difference is if they have bonemeal the whole time? Or the opposite if that's what you did.

[richardhendricks]

Preventing overlapping would computationally expensive. How would you "remember" which ones you have touched this tick? Anything we do to make them "worse" would just encourage more spam of them. I don't recall any performance issues specifically tied to sprinklers (or ic2 crops in general for that matter).

I dislike the idea of an intermediate fluid that has only one purpose, it is a cheap way to "improve" play IMO. NaOH is hardly a rate limiter IMO, getting ethanol/methanol in a reasonable way is a good limiter on how much seedoil you really need, IMO.

I am also interested in if these numbers are with bonemeal or not. I'm guessing not?

[sthegreat]

I don't think it would be easily possible to prevent overlaps in general, sprinklers exclusively could probably be made to check their radius for other sprinklers every x seconds, but the problem is that there are several things that accelerate random ticks and they can of course synergize. The TC lamp thing and non-te WA immediately come to mind.

[moller21]

Yeah, this is without bonemeal.