Gt-new-horizons-modpack: Balancing Witchery.

[KaneHart]

This might be sounding like a joke but it's not. Witchery outside of not being even suitable for the this pack because not gregified is beyond buggy, has so many lag issues, bugs, etc. It really does not fill this packs needs and it's really just a bad mark on the Pack.

Just to give you an idea of how screwed up Witchery World Gen can be the guards can be stuck in Leaves, Terrain , etc and keep like a forever lock on a hostile mob causing your AI performance to kill the server in no time flat just slowly eating away.

Outside of that it's almost like taking Thermal Expansion without recipe changes and throwing it into the pack... That is disgusting so why did you Add Thermal Expansion Magic to the Pack?

Sorry dream just expressing my opinion on how I feel about Witchery. People say the conversation can't start without a Ticket so here is my Ticket.

[quedral]

This may upset some vampires...

[GTNH-Colen]

This may upset some vampires...

Good vampirism is overpowered, we currently have LV tier people running around being virtually invincible and causing tons of rain.

[ElectroBot]

I fully support this war on magic! Well, this OP mod anyway.

[GTNH-Colen]

I fully support this war on magic! Well, this OP mod anyway.

It can even be used to strip and essentially kill players with infinity armour, even more of a reason to bin it.

[KaneHart]

I fully support this war on magic! Well, this OP mod anyway.

It can even be used to strip and essentially kill players with infinity armour, even more of a reason to bin it.

I totally forgot about the little vodo dolls I forgot about that shit... That was messed up and really screw people over.

[Waisse]

GTNH official server is consensual pvp only, any pvp issue is irrelevant.

[ElectroBot]

Also I remember a time on our 2nd server where I had to look up how to remove effects globally using vanilla commands (or one player at a time [can't remember fully since it was around 1.5 years ago]) because one player did something to everyone somehow.

[KaneHart]

GTNH official server is consensual pvp only, any pvp issue is irrelevant.

I'm about 95% sure that people could screw with others in more then 1 way without being engaged in PvP. Probably one of it's 100 bugs.

The mods not even a Forge mod from what Alk said and it's closed Bin meaning we can't really fix stuff... I doubt Alk going sit there and ASM the entire mod.

[SirFell]

This may upset some vampires...

Good vampirism is overpowered, we currently have LV tier people running around being virtually invincible and causing tons of rain.

no. just no. trust me. remotely everything in GTNH does fire/explosion damage. if anything - vampirism is underpowered

I fully support this war on magic! Well, this OP mod anyway.

So? If pvp is allowed that is completely valid item to use, if your server allows pvp but doesnt enforce no-autoclicker rule then its your problem, not mods

I fully support this war on magic! Well, this OP mod anyway.

It can even be used to strip and essentially kill players with infinity armour, even more of a reason to bin it.

I totally forgot about the little vodoo dolls I forgot about that shit... That was messed up and really screw people over.

once again, so? if pvp is allowed its a valid tool that requires skill to use, not to mention there is doll that PROTECTS from vodoo

[ElectroBot]

If it bypasses other armour completely, has global effects and requires quite a bit of knowledge and use of it just to protect yourself, then it's not a well balanced mod.

[Waisse]

I'm about 95% sure that people could screw with others in more then 1 way without being engaged in PvP. Probably one of it's 100 bugs.

Griefing isn't allowed either, and Witchery isn't the only mod that can cause grief

[Anarack]

Not commenting either way, but you need to also considering how to do this that does not require nuking player data as witchery does tie information to the player.

[SirFell]

GTNH official server is consensual pvp only, any pvp issue is irrelevant.

I'm about 95% sure that people could screw with others in more then 1 way without being engaged in PvP. Probably one of it's 100 bugs.

The mods not even a Forge mod from what Alk said and it's closed Bin meaning we can't really fix stuff... I doubt Alk going sit there and ASM the entire mod.

where is that closed bin excuse me? all i see is class files which arent even obfuscated

[KaneHart]

GTNH official server is consensual pvp only, any pvp issue is irrelevant.

I'm about 95% sure that people could screw with others in more then 1 way without being engaged in PvP. Probably one of it's 100 bugs.
The mods not even a Forge mod from what Alk said and it's closed Bin meaning we can't really fix stuff... I doubt Alk going sit there and ASM the entire mod.

where is that closed bin excuse me? all i see is class files which arent even obfuscated

1. Derivative Works / Modification
   This Mod may not be decompiled, reproduced and/or modified under any circumstances without prior written permission of the Owner. This Mod is not open source.

Where is your permissions? Please Post

[SirFell]

lets also start a vote for removing GT++ in that case, its also full of unnecessary shit and is buggy in many places (not to mention lack of cooperation from alk same as from emoniph in many cases)

[KaneHart]

lets also start a vote for removing GT++ in that case, its also full of unnecessary shit and is buggy in many places (not to mention lack of cooperation from alk same as from emoniph in many cases)

If you can't be Mature please leave. Your here to troll. Witchery does not fit the pack nor can be modified by the licensing. There is no new updates, it's not even balanced at all for this pack....

You are clearly trolling and if you could suggest ways to improve and fix the mod that be great. Your only showing the mod is nothing but a mess and now clearly a Toxic mess .

[SirFell]

i never decompiled it, none of the classes were opened, only thing bytecode viewer was used for is assemble class list into human readable form, other than that - guess what? copyright law is nearly impossible to enforce in country i live in thanks to other law that actually makes it harder to enforce

sidequestion: how would alk know what to asm edit or how does he know its closed bin if he didnt try decompiling it?

[GTNH-Colen]

At the very least this mod has to be greged, it has flown under the radar for far far too long. However due to the closed source nature of this mod it can't really be modified which sucks hard for balancing sakes.

[SirFell]

We dont need Emoniphs permission to make BPS patches. there is more than one way to reverse engineer a mod other than decompiling or reproducing it.

[KaneHart]

We dont need Emoniphs permission to make BPS patches. there is more than one way to reverse engineer a mod other than decompiling or reproducing it.

Then get at it... The mod needs to be balanced, Overhauled and fixed. Would you like me to compile list of the issues?

[SirFell]

I would love yes, and i had plans to work on it, sorry that im not alk begging people for money doing fuck all all day and actually work 22 days a month 9+ hours a day. Id love to balance witchery, but being adult doesnt let me have all the time in the world to do shit

[PoptartOverlord-Xabedo]

alright then lads, i expect a healthy discussion from now on and without your previous complaining.

first off as a voluntary heliophonic (that is to say im a vampire) vampirism is very underpowered in GTNH unless you ALREADY have OP gear i.e my Favorited gear: fully enchanted void fortress armor with KIKOKU enchanted with pain and HEE charm pouch with 3 damage charm and any method of gaining a strength potion buff, which makes me hit like a a truck, vampirism is underpowered without any of that, you're literally full on bullied without armor if you're a vampire, no different than any normal player, except that you dont drown or get poisoned, stay at half a heart in conditions that dont involve fire,explosions,lightning,void,suffocation,bosses and you feed on blood instead every couple irl hours counting that you dont use the very costly flight ability all for the cost of literally being that one guy in a server full of normal players that needs night or they'll spam the chat with deaths because of the damned sun!
me hitting like a truck isnt JUST because im a vampire since vampirism makes you hit a little stronger, its every ability i can think of from every mod that can make me hit like a damned truck that anyone without infinity or draconic should fear me.
about the flight? its costly yaknow, uses alot of blood from my blood pool.
about feeding on blood instead of food? we already have a quest for Stone tier players to get a healing axe.

last thing im gonna say about vampirism? i cant really think of it as OP since you literally trade off for a whole new playstyle that 90% of players that i converted to vampirism never played past LV, since vampirism is mostly useless except for the damage after HV anyways i really only see it should be available as early as possible, besides, as of .8.3 a vampire cant level up to level 5 as early anymore as they'd need to actually start thaumcraft now to do so, which means abilities like "very temporary short resistance to the sun" and "flight" and "making it rain" are locked behind late LV /early MV

[Anarack]

Being a vampire also makes blood magic very very difficult iirr. as it uses your blood pool instead of hearts.

[SirFell]

Being a vampire also makings blood magic very very difficult iirr. as it uses your blood pool instead of hearts.

that is correct sir.

[SirFell]

this perfectly summarizes this issue:

[ScriptedPiky]

Being a vampire also makes blood magic very very difficult iirr. as it uses your blood pool instead of hearts.

So that would mean using health regeneration and or instant health potions wouldn't work and would make BM absolutely painful at all stages, correct? I haven't read much of Witchery but from the looks of it, doing the first bits of BM without getting to the automated blood farming method of using mobs seems absolutely cancerous and utterly tedious.

[ElectroBot]

this perfectly summarizes this issue:

Not quite when you play on a server where other players choose to use it and potentially against players. Not to mention when players play on PvE server and decide grief players with things we can't track.

[SirFell]

Being a vampire also makes blood magic very very difficult iirr. as it uses your blood pool instead of hearts.

So that would mean using health regeneration and or instant health potions wouldn't work and would make BM absolutely painful at all stages, correct? I haven't read much of Witchery but from the looks of it, doing the first bits of BM without getting to the automated blood farming method of using mobs seems absolutely cancerous and utterly tedious.

i tried doing Blood Magic together with witchery vampirism in Infinity Expert before i came to NH, its nearly impossible even in easier pack that is Infinity, its really hard to get to the well of suffering while being a vampire because your blood pool is way too small and it takes too much effort refilling it

[KaneHart]

Sorry @Dream-Master I did not expect this to totally go south. Shows how bad the mod is creates a really toxic group of people another good reason to remove it. They are actually bombing this conversation just for the sake to derail it.

Honestly if Witchery was Balanced properly years ago it might not been so bad. But it's a bloody mess now and it should of never been added to the pack till it was balanced and ready. You know things like the poppet shelf used to keep chunks loaded more breaks to bypass stuff. Overall it's just one thing after another...

Clearly if the mod can be fixed, Balanced, Recipes done correctly, etc I be more happy but the issue is you got this Thermal Expansion mod but for magic with 0 Balancing to it at all...

Either way sorry Dream that chat went south so badly. I can't control them calling their friends for backup to post and spam discord. Fun Fact they all have Anime furry avatars. How gross is that.

[SirFell]

this perfectly summarizes this issue:

Not quite when you play on a server where other players choose to use it and potentially against players. Not to mention when players play on PvE server and decide grief players with things we can't track.

as i mentioned in #general, any remote griefing requires taglock kits that are hard to get unnoticed. PVP servers should think about enforcing rules that would limit use of autoclickers, poppets wont be much of an issue

[Anarack]

Looking into a way to mess with tag locking wouldn't be a bad idea in anycase. or at least somehow creating the ability to make safe zones. or just a config option.

[ElectroBot]

this perfectly summarizes this issue:

Not quite when you play on a server where other players choose to use it and potentially against players. Not to mention when players play on PvE server and decide grief players with things we can't track.

as i mentioned in #general, any remote griefing requires taglock kits that are hard to get unnoticed. PVP servers should think about enforcing rules that would limit use of autoclickers, poppets wont be much of an issue

I didn't do much checking (other than config file, wiki and google searches), but that player effect grief was GLOBAL (everyone was affected). That's not a poppet issue.

[SirFell]

Sorry @Dream-Master I did not expect this to totally go south. Shows how bad the mod is creates a really toxic group of people another good reason to remove it. They are actually bombing this conversation just for the sake to derail it.

Honestly if Witchery was Balanced properly years ago it might not been so bad. But it's a bloody mess now and it should of never been added to the pack till it was balanced and ready. You know things like the poppet shelf used to keep chunks loaded more breaks to bypass stuff. Overall it's just one thing after another...

Clearly if the mod can be fixed, Balanced, Recipes done correctly, etc I be more happy but the issue is you got this Thermal Expansion mod but for magic with 0 Balancing to it at all...

Either way sorry Dream that chat went south so badly. I can't control them calling their friends for backup to post and spam discord. Fun Fact they all have Anime furry avatars. How gross is that.

Note how you are trying to bully people because they like something you dont

Toxic? i think everyone know that i dont have any moral boundaries that limit me from using any means i would find amusing me (e.g. trolling, sarcasm, whatever)

Witchery at this point adds HUGE amount of content to progression tree not to mention its just an interesting mod on its own, once again, instead of bitching you couldve started making a BPS patch yourself. Compile me a list of issues and suggestions and ill work on it when i have free time.

Somehow though witchery ("thermal expansion 0 balance mod") is not abused by anyone (shocker really if its 0 balance)

Regarding chunkloading with poppet shelfs:
Lets remove:

• Buildcraft (quarry chunkloads itself)
• Extrautils (same for ender quarry)
• etc, i cant remember other mods that also have shit that chunkloads

lets also remove OMT since SHOCKER it bypasses claims with no logs because turrets

[monroth]

a lot of mods has issues with lags, bugs etc
witchery is one of the better mods - never had an issue with it, and i did witchery a lot
a lot of it's recepies are gregified already, it's not as bad as it is already, and probably will be nerfed even more in future
Almost all griefing is achieved via taglocking, which is very easy to protect from. Use nonvanilla\nonwitchery bed, or place your bed in town-protected chunks. In any way, it is very trackable.

Vampirism is underpowered as shit:
1)There was no satisfactory way to supply yourself with blood (instead of food), now recepie for warm blood was added, that is at leadt something, but a lot worse than just healing axe.
2)Yes you are invincible from HALF of mobs (during night), but at day situation is opposite. High level vampire can survive in cost of blood, but look at point 1 - blood is non convenient to obtain.
3)All perks of vampirism are obtainable at MV level without compromising yourself by dayburn - flying, night vision, speed.
If vampirism was profitable, i'd convert to vampire right away. I consider converting to vampire one time, because it protects from void damage of Chaos dragon, but right after i'd convert back as it otherwise is not worth it. If i didn't have witchery setup that allows me to easily lift vampirism, even that woudn't be of too much use, as it would be easier to deathspam dragon.

[SirFell]

a lot of mods has issues with lags, bugs etc
witchery is one of the better mods - never had an issue with it, and i did witchery a lot
a lot of it's recepies are gregified already, it's not as bad as it is already, and probably will be nerfed even more in future
Almost all griefing is achieved via taglocking, which is very easy to protect from. Use nonvanilla\nonwitchery bed, or place your bed in town-protected chunks. In any way, it is very trackable.

Vampirism is underpowered as shit:
1)There was no satisfactory way to supply yourself with blood (instead of food), now recepie for warm blood was added, that is at leadt something, but a lot worse than just healing axe.
2)Yes you are invincible from HALF of mobs (during night), but at day situation is opposite. High level vampire can survive in cost of blood, but look at point 1 - blood is non convenient to obtain.
3)All perks of vampirism are obtainable at MV level without compromising yourself by dayburn - flying, night vision, speed.
If vampirism was profitable, i'd convert to vampire right away. I consider converting to vampire one time, because it protects from void damage of Chaos dragon, but right after i'd convert back as it otherwise is not worth it. If i didn't have witchery setup that allows me to easily lift vampirism, even that woudn't be of too much use, as it would be easier to deathspam dragon.

continuing your post:

regarding 1: food is actually never problem for vamps, 1 point of blood is 1 point of hunger, at lvl10 vampirism you have 1000 points

regarding 2: actually less than 50%, you can die from fire and explosions easily (as easily as normal player would)

regarding daytime: absolutely yes, you can be outside during day for exactly 45 seconds lvl10 vampire in full vamp tuxedo with full blood, all that time you have slowness 4 mining fatigue 4 effects on you

[monroth]

regarding 1: food is actually never problem for vamps, 1 point of blood is 1 point of hunger, at lvl10 vampirism you have 1000 points i mean blood for vamps is bigger problem than food for nonvamps

[SirFell]

Regarding 3: vampirims protects from every skill of chaos dragon but one (and one he uses a lot) - homing orbs, those explode and you die to explosions. also regarding flight: you cant fly for too long

[SirFell]

all in all, as a person that was a vampire on delta since day he joined until he and his team reached IV - its a curse, its not a blessing, you are weaker than non-supercreatures, lycanthropy is somewhat better than being non-supercreature but its gated quite far because u need a coven ritual for it (on servers its easier because only one person needs to do it, rest can be infected by them)

[PoptartOverlord-Xabedo]

funny thing about chaos dragon, using the setup i've mentioned previously, it took me about 60~ish deaths and 5 hours non-stop to kill the chaos dragon, couldnt have done it without soulbound enchant actually.

[BlackFlameTNT]

I will say this.... Just no don't remove the mod that will cose too many unwanted issues

[KaneHart]

I will say this.... Just no don't remove the mod that will cose too many unwanted issues

Totally agree that would close too many unwanted issues.

[Ethryan]

Can we stop this discussion until either:
A: Dream has a opinion on it.
or
B: A vote has been opened on Discord.
This constant back and forth is no fun to look at or read through.

[Dream-Master]

I starting nerfing witchery every version a bit. Add more recipes to Thaumcraft make them harder but sure a lot things need to be done. Alkalus make the mod Witchery Extras which can change 80% of the recipes like oven, Spinning Wheel, Infusion etc. Maybe we have to do more recipe change here or/and patch things but remove the mod not ever happend. @KaneHart

[KaneHart]

Thanks. Yeah if we can fix it up overtime work on those recipes and such that be great. I put in a request to Alk to have a config to disable the Chunkloader ability for the Poppet Shelf.

But if things can be worked on I'm fine with that. I'm just taking a sample of since I remember being in the pack not much been done with it.

[PoptartOverlord-Xabedo]

yeah, im all in with changing the recipes to make them GTNH worthy,
but i think alot of witchery is useful in Midgame , so i hope witchery doesn't get nerfed too hard with recipe changes.

[combusterf]

Witchery works pretty much orthogonal to "standard" game mechanics. It plays differently, one defends itself differently. And what's wrong with the idea of having a counter to infinity armour out there?

Since it acts so differently, the kind of "traditional nerfing" tech oriented people aim for is basically an exercise in futility. Sure, you might aim to put things like armor rending later, but the effect is still as specific as it was before, and people will still complain it's OP until it's banned.

Just like in Dungeons and Dragons, a single wizard can kill an entire army of footfolk with fireballs - which is why you don't make an army of just footfolk if the world proves that wizards exist. Witchery is also for you, not just your opponent. Plan accordingly and only then will true balance be brought to this world.

TL;DR: People are afraid of things they don't know. Seek enlightenment before nerfing.

[Dream-Master]

It's not nerfing it's more balancing.

[Waisse]

There isn't a lot of players using Witchery, the mod need to be made more popular and accessible instead. Players delving into it do it largely for the flavor it adds, and I don't see how "balancing" the mod would benefit anyone : you'd discourage even more players trying to get into it will also not pleasing people like Kane complaining about it from a pvp standpoint.

[richardhendricks]

I think this discussion is complete. If you have nerf concerns:

1. Play the latest edition of the modpack. A lot has been changed from 2.0.7.5.
2. Propose specific recipes/changes in a separate ticket.

Alk has graciously added capabilities to control most of Witchery recipes except for the cauldron, so we can adjust those requirements.