Godot-proposals: Growing the Scene Tree the right side up

[golddotasksquestions]

Describe the project you are working on:

Without exceptions, this applies to every single Godot project.

Describe the problem or limitation you are having in your project:

Understanding an learning the Logic behind the omnipresent metaphor of the tree structure took me way too long to understand. This is for the most part because in the the actual application the tree seems more like growing roots and the rendering sorting works from the bottom up.

This makes it really hard to communicate issues, especially when it comes to render sorting and node hierarchy. It also works directly against the otherwise brilliant tree/root terminology which even finds it's way into the API. Because it is there and because it's so fundamental to how Godot works, there is unfortunately no way around but having to explain this upside down model to newcomers.

Describe how this feature / enhancement will help you overcome this problem or limitation:

• Something rendered "on top" will also appear "on top" in the node hirachy,
• The root will be at a place where you would expect roots to be
• the Node tree will grow how Trees normally grow

--> Much easier time for newcomers, much easier time to communicate between community members, much better working (otherwise great) metaphor

Show a mock up screenshots/video or a flow diagram explaining how your proposal will work:

Describe implementation detail for your proposal (in code), if possible:
Unfortunately not possible for me.

If this enhancement will not be used often, can it be worked around with a few lines of script?:
Don't think so.

Is there a reason why this should be core and not an add-on in the asset library?:
It makes little sense communication wise if only a few people have this. Addons also make little sense for newcomers, they will learn and experience the engine without addons first.

[Duroxxigar]

Going through with this would make Godot the outlier. Root is the top most level node. This is even true in math and in programming.

[Kequc]

I wouldn't mind it being one way or the other, but I do like it. I'd welcome this change if it were implemented.

Is there any reason for the existing top to bottom presentation?

[Duroxxigar]

@Kequc Because that is how it is presented in general programming and math.

[Master-J]

I don't think that would be a good idea, godot's tree structure refers to the mathematical/programming concept of trees (which has always been presented in a top to bottom fashion) and not the vegetal one (which grows from bottom to top).

You also have to consider that godot process the nodes of the scene tree recursively, so it makes sense that the ui elements being at the depest levels are rendered on top, inverting the way the tree is presented would maybe help ui design easier for newbies but on the other side make the execution flow of the tree less straigtforward.

personal note : i never saw a software letting you build hierarchies of files/objects starting from the bottom of the screen, i think it would be a terrible ux design choice (then it could just be a toggle in the editor's setting for those who want that type of ordering, but it should remain optional and disabled by default).

[golddotasksquestions]

@Master-J
The current way makes sense if you look at the Scene Panel and think of what is displayed there like a script and the parser running down the script from top to bottom.
But this is not a script, it's a graphic. It informs me as a user about the nodes rendered in the viewport (and those not rendered). In the Scene Panel they are currently displayed in the opposite order than the viewport. It's also contradicting the Tree-branch-leaf metaphor. (Unless you know a tree grows into the earth)
I accept that this contradiction has tradition. That does not make it any less absurd.
Especially in Godot case of the Scene Panel, I think this could be reconsidered. It's seems like I am in a vast minority with that opinion here, though. Which is ok.

[Feniks-Gaming]

I agree that Tree represents math concept of a trea not actual living tree.

On top of that it would make the least important Nodes the easiest to access and the most important Nodes the hardest to access.

In your tree your root node is the most important and the most often access node, then you have children of a node like sprites collision boxes then Nodes you hardly ever access like your timers or random containers and script holders. With tree being upside down it would make your random Timer76 the most top node of a tree pushing your root node far far down making it huge scrolling hassle every time.

[golddotasksquestions]

There is no rule or reason to have the math model of a tree depicted in only one particular way if something else would make more sense. _Because_ it is an abstract idea you can display it in any shape.
This is a math tree just as much much as this or this or this

On top of that it would make the least important Nodes the easiest to access and the most important Nodes the hardest to access.

This proposal is just about the display of the tree in the Scene Panel, noting else. As you can see in the graphic, the tree structure is exactly the same. The only difference would be, that if you have two Sprites or UI elements and you go to the scene panel to move Sprite1 on top of Sprite2, Sprite 1 would equally appear on top of Sprite2 in the viewport. Nothing more nothing less.

With tree being upside down it would make your random Timer76 the most top node of a tree pushing your root node far far down making it huge scrolling hassle every time.

I also don't get that. The amount of scrolling you would do would be absolutely identical. Currently the root is aligned to the top, in my proposal it is aligned to the bottom of the Scene Panel. The amount of nodes hidden depends on the size of your Scene Panel box either way. There is absolutely no difference on what nodes would be visible in the scene panel. All it would do is to display hirachical sorting in the Scene Panel as it does in the viewport by default.

[Master-J]

With tree being upside down it would make your random Timer76 the most top node of a tree pushing your root node far far down making it huge scrolling hassle every time.

I think the point he's trying to make is that you unconsciously treat the nodes at the top to be the most important ones of your hierarchies. And that understandable because for decades every software that has to display hierarchies of things do that from to to bottom.

I understand that the all "tree" metaphor may be misleading for total newbies in godot/programming but sometimes you just have to accept it and live with it (and if an arguably misleading term is all someone need to start being totally lost i wish him good luck because there are things even more complex to learn/figure out).

Currently, the way the nodes are displayed in the scene panel makes sense (it won't if you're think biological trees, metaphors.....we got that) and that's how it is also done in most engines like Unity (this one i know, well). Taking Unity's example, the UI elements will also be rendered from top to bottom.

I guess you won't be getting a lot of interest with your proposal, still, if you really think this must be added to the engine, you can always open a pull request to add an editor setting that swaps the order the scene panel is displaying the scene tree.

[Feniks-Gaming]

I think the point he's trying to make is that you unconsciously treat the nodes at the top to be the most important ones of your hierarchies. And that understandable because for decades every software that has to display hierarchies of things do that from to to bottom.

That is exactly my point when you open a file structure on computer it looks like this

You can clearly see that the most important part of this tree is my Local Disc C if I delete this somehow everything goes. The least important part of this tree is something like Resources or Setup FIles

Anyone who ever used computer is used to this design. It's natural to almost anyone even when I want to go back I click go up to parent folder

Your design goes against past 40 years of any software design and user experience.

[golddotasksquestions]

Thanks everyone for expressing and explaining your points further.
@Master-J For me there is no point in pursuing this any further as there is a clear an strong consensus against it, even though it seems to me like a clear case of QWERTY.

[Calinou]

I'll close this proposal due to lack of support from the community. Thanks for participating :slightly_smiling_face: