Element-web: Should rename "Redact" to "Delete message..."
And show a popup to verify the deletion.
MightyCreak
All 19 comments
i just deleted the most important message of my life, because i wanted to edit it.
i can not tell you how i feel right now...
derWalter
on 23 Feb 2017
@matrixcoffee suggests 'retract', which does sound like a good match
richvdh
on 22 Mar 2017
verification dialog is https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/277 fwiw
richvdh
on 22 Mar 2017
@matrixcoffee suggests 'retract', which does sound like a good match
Why not keep it simple? I think that "Remove" or "Delete" are common and understandable enough. I have literally never seen "Retract" (or "Redact") in any software. I don't think Riot needs to be original on that, the users already have a lot to learn, let's not use cumbersome synonyms where it's not needed.
MightyCreak
on 23 Mar 2017
But it is not deleted. It's redacted. I am not sure how this is confusing to people. "Remove" or "Delete" would suggest a behavior that isn't accurate.
A popup to verify the redaction would be good though.
taw00
on 23 Mar 2017
The problem with "Delete" is that it may cause people to have unrealistic expectations. And because Matrix is an open federation, it is more likely to be an issue.
FYI, here's the full text of my proposal:
A politician retracting a statement doesn't erase it from the public record, yet one is expected to kind of pretend it was never said.
Similarly, redacting an event doesn't truly erase it, and requires cooperation to honor it. I believe the semantics are a good match.
Matrixcoffee
on 23 Mar 2017
I read the argument, and I understand it. I simply disagree with it. I think this kind of subtleties should be handled elsewhere than in the UI; for instance, in the documentation or in a "first-use" tutorial.
People using Riot aren't politicians or public personalities, and Matrix is merely a discussion platform, not a blog or a newspaper, so technically, they don't need to retract anything. What they need, in the vast majority of cases, is to edit or delete a message because it has a typo or is inaccurate.
Another example: in the _federated_ network Diaspora*, when I want to _retract_ one of my posts, the button is merely named "Delete".
There will always be subtleties that lay in the backend and the UI can't be here to expose them all. I think it's a bad UX decision to do that because 99% of the users expect to see "Delete..." and "Edit...", while the other 1%, that actually care about that, already know about it (or will know soon enough). A good UX doesn't expose everything to the user. A good UX exposes what the user need, and what he or she expects to see, at the right moment. It has to be contextual and familiar. My opinion is that "Retract" is, simply put, not familiar, and I think that the distinction is not important enough to have its place in the UI.
MightyCreak
on 23 Mar 2017
I would say this is one instance where a tool tip or context sensitive help
could be very helpful.
On Mar 23, 2017 6:01 AM, "Creak" notifications@github.com wrote:
I read the argument, and I understand it. I simply disagree with it. I
think this kind of subtleties should be handled elsewhere than in the UI;
for instance, in the documentation or in a "first-use" tutorial.People using Riot aren't politicians or public personalities, and Matrix
is merely a discussion platform, not a blog or a newspaper, so technically,
they don't need to retract anything. What they need, in the vast
majority of cases, is to edit or delete a message because it has a typo or
is inaccurate.Another example: in the federated network Diaspora, when I want to
*retract one of my posts, the button is merely named "Delete".There will always be subtleties that lay in the backend and the UI can't
be here to expose them all. I think it's a bad UX decision to do that
because 99% of the users expect to see "Delete..." and "Edit...", while the
other 1%, that actually care about that, already know about it (or will
know soon enough). A good UX doesn't expose everything to the user. A good
UX exposes what the user need, and what he or she expects to see, at the
right moment. It has to be contextual and familiar. My opinion is that
"Retract" is, simply put, not familiar, and I think that the distinction is
not important enough to have its place in the UI.—
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tessgadwa
on 23 Mar 2017
as long as i cant get it back (like un-delete or un-hide the message easily) and make it visible again, for me as end user it is deleting. and end user does not care about technicallies, they need to know, otherwise the software ist stupid to them and misleading and the do not like it period.
make an helptext which can be unfolded for deeper technical understanding and explenation... that would work for both sides?
derWalter
on 23 Mar 2017
Or why not remove all ambiguity and just have an "X"?
On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 9:23 AM, derWalter notifications@github.com wrote:
as long as i cant get it back (like un-delete or un-hide the message
easily) and make it visible again, for me as end user it is deleting. and
end user does not care about technicallies, they need to know, otherwise
the software ist stupid to them and misleading and the do not like it
period.make an helptext which can be unfolded for deeper technical understanding
and explenation... that would work for both sides?—
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tessgadwa
on 23 Mar 2017
I don't think that would solve the problem. 'X' often refers to "close". We could also use a trash icon, but it often refers to "delete".
In both cases, icons means something textual. They are used because it needs to be easily accessible and because we need to save some space in the UI; not because we don't know how to call using text.
I'm not sure for using a tool tip since it's not really mobile-friendly, and tooltips should be a textual interpretation of the button. Using tooltips to explain how Matrix works doesn't seem like a good place either I'm afraid :/
MightyCreak
on 23 Mar 2017
The longer version of this question comes back to a core dilemma:
Whether we are building this software for power users (people who are
probably programmers, can host their own servers, understand issues like
federation and will care about the Redact/Delete distinction @Matrixcoffee
was talking about)Or whether we are building this software for the average user (in which
case a "Delete" button or Trash icon is def the way to go)
That should really determine the action to be taken.
On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Creak notifications@github.com wrote:
I don't think that would solve the problem. 'X' often refers to "close".
We could also use a trash icon, but it often refers to "delete".In both cases, icons means something textual. They are used because it
needs to be easily accessible and because we need to save some space in the
UI; not because we don't know how to call using text.I'm not sure for using a tool tip since it's not really mobile-friendly,
and tooltips should be a textual interpretation of the button. Using
tooltips to explain how Matrix works doesn't seem like a good place either
I'm afraid :/—
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Tess Gadwa
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Yes Exactly, Inc. | yesexactly.com | 413.325.8251
tessgadwa
on 23 Mar 2017
For what it's worth, I'd advocating towards building for power users, but
that discussion is a whole other can of worms...
On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:01 AM, Tess Gadwa info@yesexactly.com wrote:
The longer version of this question comes back to a core dilemma:
Whether we are building this software for power users (people who are
probably programmers, can host their own servers, understand issues like
federation and will care about the Redact/Delete distinction @Matrixcoffee
was talking about)Or whether we are building this software for the average user (in which
case a "Delete" button or Trash icon is def the way to go)That should really determine the action to be taken.
On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 9:51 AM, Creak notifications@github.com wrote:
I don't think that would solve the problem. 'X' often refers to "close".
We could also use a trash icon, but it often refers to "delete".In both cases, icons means something textual. They are used because it
needs to be easily accessible and because we need to save some space in the
UI; not because we don't know how to call using text.I'm not sure for using a tool tip since it's not really mobile-friendly,
and tooltips should be a textual interpretation of the button. Using
tooltips to explain how Matrix works doesn't seem like a good place either
I'm afraid :/—
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Tess Gadwa
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Yes Exactly, Inc. | yesexactly.com | 413.325.8251 <(413)%20325-8251>
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Tess Gadwa
Chief Executive Officer
Yes Exactly, Inc. | yesexactly.com | 413.325.8251
tessgadwa
on 23 Mar 2017
It is indeed a can of worms :)
It's not because it is used by power users that it allows to make a counter-intuitive design.
I think GNOME is a good example of how to make a system both user-friendly and for power users (I know a lot of people don't think the same, but I don't know how many of them actually tried to use GNOME on a day to day basis). Firefox is another example, the power user options are here, but less easily accessible (extensions or about:config).
I would be very disappointed if Riot would go the "power user" way. I like Riot because it's the kind of app I can ask my non-tech savvy friends to use. I like that, as a power user, I know I can make my own server for my non-tech savvy friends.
But my main point is that I don't seen the interest in that. Let's try to look at the big picture here. Anything you post on the internet is public, and once you say something, anyone can come and quote you, it can even be archived before you delete it. But, even with that in mind, absolutely every webapp on earth is using "Delete" or "Remove" to remove a forum post, a comment, a blog post, you name it.
Considering that, I definitely don't see the point in doing something different here.
MightyCreak
on 24 Mar 2017
My thoughts on this have moved.
What happens when you redact a join event? Neither delete nor retract seem appropriate here.
Would people be ok with "Remove Content"?
This issue is important now, because translations are being merged into Android, and translators don't know how to translate "redact". I know at least some have opted to translate it as "delete", which is problematic given what it does to e.g. join events.
Matrixcoffee
on 24 Mar 2017
"Remove Content", or just "Remove" seems acceptable to me.
On Mar 24, 2017 10:35 AM, "Matrixcoffee" notifications@github.com wrote:
My thoughts on this have moved.
What happens when you redact a join event? Neither delete nor retract seem
appropriate here.Would people be ok with "Remove Content"?
—
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tessgadwa
on 24 Mar 2017
I am for an "easy to learn, hard to master" approach.
Make a delete/trash icon and when clicked a popup which
has a good & short(!) description text regarding "redacted but not deleted",
yes or cancel, gives all the possible information.
"removed and not visible in the chat-stream anymore,
but still accessible in the database for power users,
due to federation
"for power users" didn't bring the most valuable company in 15 years from flop to top,
I also consider it selfish and as intelligent as pissing in the pants because its cold.
Imagine cars, the internet and kitchen tools designed "for power users".
and tbh, riot is the frontend which purpose is to drag as many people as possible into the matrix network,
so it generates more popularity and attracts more developers and companies to invest time, code and money into it.
For real power users, there are even bash based clients for the matrix network!
https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now.html#clients
just my cents :)
derWalter
on 24 Mar 2017
Redact has become remove. I believe this can be closed now?
turt2live
on 30 May 2017
that it can.
ara4n
on 30 May 2017
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Most helpful comment
I read the argument, and I understand it. I simply disagree with it. I think this kind of subtleties should be handled elsewhere than in the UI; for instance, in the documentation or in a "first-use" tutorial.
People using Riot aren't politicians or public personalities, and Matrix is merely a discussion platform, not a blog or a newspaper, so technically, they don't need to retract anything. What they need, in the vast majority of cases, is to edit or delete a message because it has a typo or is inaccurate.
Another example: in the _federated_ network Diaspora*, when I want to _retract_ one of my posts, the button is merely named "Delete".
There will always be subtleties that lay in the backend and the UI can't be here to expose them all. I think it's a bad UX decision to do that because 99% of the users expect to see "Delete..." and "Edit...", while the other 1%, that actually care about that, already know about it (or will know soon enough). A good UX doesn't expose everything to the user. A good UX exposes what the user need, and what he or she expects to see, at the right moment. It has to be contextual and familiar. My opinion is that "Retract" is, simply put, not familiar, and I think that the distinction is not important enough to have its place in the UI.