Cataclysm-dda: Lore inconsistency: mutations and DNA

[Coolthulhu]

There are two conflicting visions of mutations in the lore:

• Mutations are a blob magic thing. They don't change DNA. Purifier removes the blob alterations
• Mutations are a DNA thing. Purifier somehow extracts "birth DNA" and applies that.

The former view seems to be the official one on the forums. It explains purifier not being a nanomachine kind of a thing and traits being more "static" than mutations gained during the game.

The latter is implied by CBM mis-installation message ("You damage your genetics" or something like that) and some descriptions.

Purifier description contradicts both of those:
"A rare stem-cell treatment that causes mutations and other genetic defects to fade away."

"Other genetic defects" means things like allergies. Those aren't purified.

[Breligar]

If blobs cause mutation, then Purifier would essentially just be Blob Bleach. It wouldn't repair so much as clean out all the sludge and let you start again.

On the other hand, if mutation is caused by DNA shenanigans, then reverting to your "default" state would require a default state to be known by the Purifier in the first place. There could be an added requirement of having yourself tested at a hospital to science-magic a template the Purifier could then use, but that's if added complexity is desired.

The "DNA damage" comment should probably just be removed from CBMs in general. "If you yank this out/put this in and mess up, you could severely harm or even permanently cripple yourself" is a good enough warning, IMO.

You could also have Mr. Stem Cell get in line with this. For example, if everything is done with blobs, then "stem cell" healing could really just be blob-snot mixed with other junk to rebuild you rapidly. Alternatively, If mutations go towards DNA instead, it could require the aforementioned blood test/template to find a baseline before use; "Please insert DNA template before use!", etc.

Finally, radiation would be an odd case. If DNA is the reason for mutation then it's fine, but it makes no sense in a Blob-mutation world. That said, mutation by radiation can be turned on/off by the player, so it may not actually be a concern.

[Labtop-215]

I turn off mutation by radiation for this very reason. Although I kind of look at mutagen and purifier mutations as though mutagens, artifact induced mutations, and CBM damage based mutations are adding code to your DNA that your body somehow acts on (which should show how little I know about DNA), and that purifier removes strands that are excessive. So like if who you are is covered within the first 23 pairs of chromosomes in your DNA, then that is left alone somehow, but everything after that is at risk of being removed or altered.

It still doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a realism perspective for CBM's to somehow add chromosomes though, but I don't think everything needs to be realistic if it's close enough and adds something to game play. So for CBM's, this potential modification to your DNA adds a risk that is relevant to all people characters, including high level characters. Perhaps CBM mutations can be reworked to include only specific mutations, and to perhaps add them as traits like missing limbs, cataracts, locked finger syndrome, brain damage induced mental illness's and the like instead of random mutations.

[Soyweiser]

I always wondered, as the blob is everywhere already (see the people coming back from the dead), we can assume the player has also been infected right?

That gives an explanation why radiation mutates you. (well, it doesn't mutate you, it mutates the blob inside of you, or triggers it to mutate, whatever). The same way you could say that the CBM failure doesn't 'damage your genetics' it causes an reaction by the blob inside of you. (Of course the players character doesn't know the blob is inside of them (or most of them shouldn't), so it could say 'something inside your body reacts badly, and you reject the installation').

One point on the lore, I pointed out to the lab note that it was genetics. But perhaps the lab notes are not all true. Perhaps some scientists don't know what they are talking about. (Scientists also make mistakes).

We could add a new labnote scolding the previous researcher for talking about 'genetics' when that has not been proven yet.

For some reason I assume that everybody is infected by the blob, and mutations are some sort of self defense mechanism by the blob. And the blob gets calmed down by purifier. (Which also explains why purifier cannot remove traits you picked at char gen. These are not blob created, but your own genetic variation).

[Zireael07]

We could add a new labnote scolding the previous researcher for talking about 'genetics' when that has not been proven yet.

He he heee. Brilliant solution!

[kevingranade]

Just a few observations.
I'd be 100% ok with removing the "genetic damage" side-effect from CBM
installation. It doesn't make sense.
Purifier doesn't say, "every genetic abnormality", there's no contradiction
there. The description reflects it's pre-cataclysm use, it doesn't have
anything to do with how it interacts with blob mutations.
The player is definitely blob-infected, this is the rationale for radiation
and other environmental factors causing mutations like they do.

If we're talking about scifi explanations for mutations, blob introducing
non-dna protein encoding material into cells (almost like a virus) would
resolve things. That gives purifier something to work on, and the original
genetic material is still present.

[Izicata]

Finally, radiation would be an odd case. If DNA is the reason for mutation then it's fine, but it makes no sense in a Blob-mutation world. That said, mutation by radiation can be turned on/off by the player, so it may not actually be a concern.

There's a line in the Labnotes that says radiation can cause mutation in Blob-infected creatures by "stimulating" the latent Blob. Obviously "Blob-infected creatures" would include the player's character unless they've gone full Mycus. So that's been at least handwaved. CBM mutations could work in sort of the same way; you mess up, and something you did caused the Blob in your body to get all riled up and start doing weird stuff.

I personally fall down on the side of mutations being stuff the Blob/Mycus has grafted onto your body. It's the most coherent in-universe explanation, lines up with the Mycus removing Blob mutations (why would it do that if mutations are DNA changes and not active Blob?), and makes sense with what I know of real-world DNA works. That's admittedly not very much, but I'm pretty sure that introducing new DNA to an organism that isn't in the womb just gives you cancer most of the time. The other times are when viruses hijack your cells to produce more viruses; the blob hijacking your cells to produce more blob sort of fits with the Slime category of mutations, not so much others.

[Soyweiser]

On the lore thing, I read, I think in the design document, that the researchers are not intended to be bumbling idiots right?

We should take that into account when writing new lore.

[Soyweiser]

I was thinking more about this, while looking at some strange lab stuff. And coming back to 'the scientists are not idiots' thing. And I was wondering. I know it is a touchy subject. But, if the scientists aren't idiots, why do they have so much fetish and furry gear drop in their bedrooms?

That does make them look less researcher, and more interested in other stuff. So I was wondering about that. If we want to make the scientists look like serious people, we might have to move the drop locations for this to another place.

[Labtop-215]

I always thought that research patients and test subjects where the ones sleeping in the bedrooms, while the scientists had luxurious accommodations elsewhere. How common is it for scientists to sleep at their workplace?

[Coolthulhu]

But, if the scientists aren't idiots, why do they have so much fetish and furry gear drop in their bedrooms?

Uh, research

I'm pretty sure lab bedrooms just spawn regular bedroom drops. Kinda hard to adjust it, with lab entries being hardcoded.

[raymoo]

How common is it for scientists to sleep at their workplace?

Inversely proportional to the time until the next conference deadline

[kevingranade]

Closing for inactivity.
This seems to be the only proposal for resolving the apparent inconsistencies:

If we're talking about scifi explanations for mutations, blob introducing non-dna protein encoding material into cells (almost like a virus) would resolve things. That gives purifier something to work on, and the original genetic material is still present.

Perhaps the Blob only acts by modifying a new chromosome that it generates, and various stimuli cause it to adjust this new chromosome. Likewise purifier causes this new chromosome to disintegrate, and it can do so because it's not DNA-based at all.

More importantly, everything doesn't have to be totally consistent, the lore is mankind's best guess at what's happening; it doesn't necessarily reflect what's really happening, and it doesn't have to be consistent, because different researchers might come to different conclusions.

To the extent that we reign in the game stating things as fact to the player, I agree that's something worth fixing (i.e. #17897), because it's difficult to make it clear that game outputs are unreliable, so the best option is to be vague instead.